Todd Hunter (00:01.669) Hey, Patrick Wildman, thank you for joining us in this series on C4SO's values. Today we're going to be talking about kingdom, mission and spirit. And I'm going to, want to hear your heart and head on these things for the sake of our listeners. Thanks for being here. Patrick Wildman (00:16.396) Yeah, it's great to be here. Yeah. Todd Hunter (00:18.225) All right, so let's start with a fun story to me. I can't remember what year this would have been, but somewhere maybe in the late 90s. I used to occasionally go up to the University of Southern California where Dallas Willard was a philosophy professor and have lunch with him. It the beginning of kind of our mentoring relationship. And there was this little Mexican restaurant, I think across from Figaro Boulevard. And we were sitting in there and I don't know what I just read. Something from him, something from Willard. I don't remember. Well, I was all fired up about the kingdom and I said something to him all fired up. And I remember him reaching over and sort of patting my forearm. I remember I said to him, but Dallas, this changes everything. And he reached over the table and was patting my forearm and said, no, come on, it'll be okay. So I feel like we all had some of these kinds of moments, especially lots of us evangelicals when we first sort of heard and understood. Patrick Wildman (01:07.502) Ha Todd Hunter (01:15.665) What it meant to take Jesus serious about the kingdom. Can you remember a moment like that? Was it a like were you reading a book? Was it a conversation? Patrick Wildman (01:24.078) Well, it was a process really. And it actually started at my conversion because I didn't grow up in church. literally have no real memory of ever being in church. so, you know, people reached out to me through Young Life and a lot of the Young Life staff attended Colonial Presbyterian Church, which is where I ended up working after college. But You know, so when I came to faith, and I really am grateful for the kind of the spiritual foundation that I received, because a lot of people poured a lot of time into me. you know, my whole orientation was ministry. We didn't ever call it kingdom, but it was. Todd Hunter (02:07.025) Hmm. Todd Hunter (02:19.622) Yeah. Yeah. Patrick Wildman (02:24.534) In fact, when I first started, it was probably two years after I became a believer that I first started attending church for the first time. Todd Hunter (02:32.465) You were going to like youth groups or young life groups or whatever. Yeah. Patrick Wildman (02:37.92) And it was so bizarre, because I was like, I had never really been around nominalism in that way, like just kind of going to church. I just thought everybody, all Christians were engaged in ministry and trying to tell others about Christ. You made the comment in your podcast last week about Todd Hunter (02:40.273) you Todd Hunter (02:46.959) Mmm. That's fascinating, yeah. Todd Hunter (02:58.64) Mm-hmm. Patrick Wildman (03:07.074) you know, the kingdom comes to us through the person, words and work of Jesus. And I very much was from the beginning engaged in the words and the work of Jesus. think I always from the beginning also understood that I needed some kind of personal, that there was a, needed to be a personal connection to all of that. I think, and we can talk about this in a minute. think my... Todd Hunter (03:20.945) Hmm. Patrick Wildman (03:36.82) understanding of how my person was going to be shaped was really not sufficient. So later, years later, I think the first big thing that happened was my introduction to Willard, reading Divine Confederacy like 1998. And then renovation of the heart even after that. I mean, it just... Todd Hunter (03:43.201) Mm. Yeah. Todd Hunter (03:56.44) Hmm. Yeah. Todd Hunter (04:03.547) Yeah. Patrick Wildman (04:05.59) It literally just blew my mind. Todd Hunter (04:07.501) Yeah. So now you can understand why my mind was blown, right? Patrick Wildman (04:10.688) Yeah. A renovation of the heart literally like every page blew my mind. And so really developing a more robust theology of transformation, how spiritual formation actually happens. I think that was a significant moment in my understanding of the kingdom. And when I say, I mean a period of years where literally I read everything by Willard, I could get my hands on. Hearing God, Spirit of the Disciplines. The next big moment was surprised by hope. Todd Hunter (04:49.35) Yeah. Patrick Wildman (04:58.03) you know, 2010 maybe. And then after you believe that he came out with a couple years later, I think that really helped me. I had the pieces of the puzzle in my brain. I just didn't have them all put together in terms of like my eschatology and how that impacts. Todd Hunter (05:01.115) Mm-hmm. Todd Hunter (05:18.308) Mm-hmm. Patrick Wildman (05:27.246) what we're doing now. Todd Hunter (05:29.711) Yeah, yeah. So yeah, that's an interesting story that you were in touch like without knowing the sort of technical definitions of words like rule or rain or word or works. That was I hear you saying that was in the spirit of your conversion and only later did you have language for it. Yeah, that's that's cool story. So now that you look back. Patrick Wildman (05:40.899) Yeah. Patrick Wildman (05:48.66) Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Todd Hunter (05:56.964) Give us just a couple of anecdotes here. How did you find this changing you, like when you read Divine Conspiracy or whatever, you know, maybe in terms of your own discipleship, you know, did it shift your philosophy of ministry, preaching, the way you think about leading Christ's church, you know, whatever comes to your mind? Patrick Wildman (06:14.478) definitely changed my discipleship and at this point, you know, I had made the move from colonial Presbyterian to Christ Church. I was in an Anglican setting for the first time and which by the way, it's now been 25 years. Year 25 years. Yeah, that's exactly what. So like I said, my whole. Todd Hunter (06:32.303) Wow, that means we've gotten old. Patrick Wildman (06:42.538) understanding of spiritual formation was really was changed and definitely fine-tuned. So for me personally, but also in terms of my ministry, I mean, I think one of the gifts God has given me is teaching. just, it just what I love to do. I love to teach. So I just immediately started teaching people what I was learning, you know? And so that was definitely reflected in my preaching. Todd Hunter (06:52.369) Mmm. Todd Hunter (07:02.747) Yeah. Todd Hunter (07:07.75) Yeah. Patrick Wildman (07:12.49) And I go back and look at old sermons and you definitely see a marked change in my preaching in terms of not only talking more specifically about the practices, but also talking about... just bigger picture of the kingdom, what that means, and still am, like talking about a lot of NT Wright stuff has now been incorporated in my preaching and teaching. I think it's changed our programming. We've run alpha for years and years, and alpha's very much oriented around kingdom. Todd Hunter (07:32.219) Yeah. Todd Hunter (07:52.943) Yeah. Todd Hunter (07:58.449) Mm-hmm. Patrick Wildman (07:58.83) theology. You know, it's changed the way we do spiritual formation in the church. You know, we definitely are coming at it from a... from a Willard point of view. I'm very much intentionally trying to teach that to our parishioners. So, it's made a big, big change. Todd Hunter (08:14.735) Yeah. Todd Hunter (08:20.175) Yeah, so shift. Sorry, go ahead. Yeah, so shifting away from Willard to and and Tom Wright to another group of people who I know influenced our generation and other generations would be Leslie Newbegin. And then, of course, the work done by Alan Roxberg and Darrell Guder and George Hunsberg and those guys with the Gospel in our Culture Network. So you've you've known me a long time and know that I use these words often because of the influence of Nubagin on me. And it's something that I've tried to sort of knead like yeast into the dough of C4SO. So words like announce, demonstrate, embody the kingdom of God. How the church is sign, foretaste, or instrument, or bear of divine blessing is I think another Nubaginism, you know, thinking back to the calling of Israel and... the calling of Abraham, the creation of Israel, and then the church. So, like, how have you worked those big, I mean, I know you've read all those words for 20 years, like, do you, like, help the people who are listening understand how you've taken those $35, you know, dollar theological words and made them practical? Patrick Wildman (09:27.054) Mm-hmm. Patrick Wildman (09:38.284) Yeah. Well, like announce, demonstrate, and embody. Obviously, you know, we, I think we all understand that we have the job of proclaiming the good news. And we try to do that, obviously, we wanna encourage people to do that individually, but we also very much are committed to that as a community, as a body. That's why we run Alpha, because we wanna ensure that we are. Todd Hunter (10:10.949) Yeah. Yeah. Patrick Wildman (10:15.028) Announcing the good news. That's, that's, and it is good news. You know, we definitely want to demonstrate. We've, we've not only in ministry to our parishioners, but also in our surrounding community and city. We have mission partners that we've worked with for a long time. And we are really relationally invested in them. not only here in the city, around the globe, Honduras, Uganda. And we very much think of that as, those are opportunities where we get to demonstrate the kingdom of God. know, embody, that's been the real... Todd Hunter (10:50.405) Hmm. Mm-hmm. Todd Hunter (11:04.825) Yeah. Patrick Wildman (11:14.09) where I think I've really changed a lot in terms of just understanding that all of our announcing and demonstrating has to come out of our person. You know, and that starts with incarnation. mean, Jesus didn't do his divine work of reconciliation just because Todd Hunter (11:27.674) Yeah. Todd Hunter (11:42.885) Yeah. Patrick Wildman (11:43.47) He did it because it's who he is. He is the reconciliation of humanity and God. And so it it flowed out of his person. And I remember you wanted to get away from Willard, but I'm going to bring you back. You know, you you said you've said many times to me, Dallas reminded you, Todd, you are God's project. Todd Hunter (11:58.167) That's okay. Patrick Wildman (12:11.586) You know, and so if we're going to announce and demonstrate the kingdom, well, we have to embody it. Todd Hunter (12:19.779) Yeah, yeah, that's a fair point. And that they actually ideally should come out of us embodying something. Announcing and demonstrating comes out of embodiment. Patrick Wildman (12:29.133) Yep. And in fact, When it doesn't, and we all know of examples of massive failures, but that's what happens. It collapses because at some point, you're not able to sustain in your person what you're actually trying to do. Todd Hunter (12:46.641) Yeah. Patrick Wildman (13:04.664) For me, that's where that all starts. It has to be, and I've said to our staff many times, if in all the work that we're doing... if we're not becoming better human beings, we're not growing, if God isn't at work in us, changing us, transforming us, then it's all really kind of pointless. Yeah. Todd Hunter (13:32.849) Yeah, yeah. All right, well, let's pivot here for the sake of time to one of our other big values and see for so and that's mission. And, you know, I've watched you now for 15 or 16 years being a very careful, thoughtful leader. And, you know, like you, I've just known my whole life. There are so many churches who wish they could, you know, especially after the Gospel and Culture Network guys, remember, become more missional. That was the term for 10 or 15 years. Patrick Wildman (13:59.297) huh. Todd Hunter (14:02.753) So here I want you to invite you to be as practical as you want to be. You know, there's lots of ways of conceiving of the meaning and life of the local church, you know, like we're a worshiping church or we're prophetic church or, you know, we're a justice church or any of those things. We're a Bible church. How have you kept the life of Christ Church Overland Park focused on mission? And you might think of teaching, preaching, staff, vestry, budget, programs, whatever. But I know this is something you're really good at. So I'm almost saying, are there some tips for the people out there who wanna morph their community into something more missional? Patrick Wildman (14:47.598) Yeah, yeah. Well, first of all, you have to know the community that you're working with. And you have to be able to do a good, honest assessment of what the community is, who the community is, and what the challenges are. Because, you know, like in our case here, like, you know, we're a 60, almost 66 year old church. so my 25 years here is, you know, it's, it's, it's a decent portion of it, but there still was a lot of history before me. So I was inheriting something and the cement really wasn't very wet, you know, it was. so how you go about changing and, and, and setting a missional course. Todd Hunter (15:22.737) Mm-hmm. Todd Hunter (15:33.818) Right. Todd Hunter (15:39.398) Mm-hmm. Patrick Wildman (15:48.202) in a situation like that is very different than if you're planting, you know. But assuming you're in some sort of established work and you are sensing that you need to change, you need to make that assessment about the community, but then you also need to make some assessments about yourself. Todd Hunter (15:52.303) Yes. Patrick Wildman (16:13.578) And because what I have learned is that change of any kind, if you're going to be successful in an established culture of making that change, you've got to be patient and you've got to be determined. It's a long obedience in the same direction. And I think, you know, a lot of people just want to come in and kind of blow things up. Todd Hunter (16:44.503) or tack on a program or something. Patrick Wildman (16:46.88) Yeah, and that's just not gonna work. It's not really gonna work over the long haul. I just happen to be, honestly, I can live in boredom. I can do the same things over and over over again and be content. And that allows me to be patient. And, you know, but... Todd Hunter (17:01.553) Hmm Todd Hunter (17:09.297) Yeah. Patrick Wildman (17:13.488) I think if you want to be more missional. You know, one of the things I've done here is I made it a point to really learn as much as I could about the history of Christchurch from as many of the older folks as I could. And I just basically took what I could from that story and created my own, created a story. Todd Hunter (17:33.093) Mm-hmm. Todd Hunter (17:39.538) And leveraged leverage the strengths of that towards something else. Yeah Yeah. Yeah. Patrick Wildman (17:47.647) This is the story of Christ Church. I just, yeah, essentially took what I could, what helped us, what was going to help us get where we wanted to go. Todd Hunter (18:00.707) Yeah, was it Peter Drucker who used to call this building on islands of health and strength? Like you can only build on it, you can't build on anything else. So what I hear you saying is you identified the islands of health and strength with regard to mission and knitted that together into a story and then just called them into, hey, this is who you are, let's go. yeah. Patrick Wildman (18:22.348) Yeah, yeah. And I just kept telling that story over and over and over again, as people will tell you. I just, I'm always, and I'm still doing it. I always do it. I'll say, remember, you know, and tell the story. And so I think creating a narrative that will help you in that change is important. You know, to any younger leader, Todd Hunter (18:26.746) Yeah. Yeah. Todd Hunter (18:34.769) Mm-hmm. Patrick Wildman (18:51.68) If you're going to set out to change a church in a more missional direction, I would really encourage you get the book, The Power of Habit by Charles Duhigg. Read that book, especially pay attention to the chapters about Alcoa, the story of Alcoa and Michael Phelps. Read that book and establish a keystone habit that is going to help leverage change towards more missional behavior in your church and then start to work toward small wins toward that keystone habit. You know, here at Christ Church, we've made our keystone habit hospitality. And we said, we're gonna view everything through the lens of hospitality. And essentially, hospitality, which Todd Hunter (19:31.451) Yeah. Todd Hunter (19:36.207) Yeah. Todd Hunter (19:41.583) Mm-hmm. Patrick Wildman (19:49.506) Who can be opposed to being hospitable? Who can tell you, no, no, no. Todd, I don't want to be hospitable. We picked something that was benign that no one could object to, but it gave us permission to get under the hood. Every part of our church, even places like the altar guild. Well, how, how are we going to be able to serve communion in a more hospitable way? Todd Hunter (19:51.38) Yeah, right. Yeah. Todd Hunter (20:06.481) Mm-hmm. Todd Hunter (20:12.069) Mm-hmm. Patrick Wildman (20:20.942) How are we gonna do our bulletins in a more hospitable way? I mean, just everything. And it really had created a, up creating over time, literally like a tidal wave of change. But it was this one small win after another, after another, after another, and it really builds. Todd Hunter (20:39.867) Well. Todd Hunter (20:48.153) Yeah, yeah, I think I would want to say to those who are listening who You're in a pretty rare position in c4so to be in a 66 year old church And you know having to deal with something that had already existed for 35 years or more than that So I think you would agree with this that even if you're in a church plant that's three years old or seven years old a culture has been established and if you're looking at it and thinking gosh, we're Patrick Wildman (21:11.456) Absolutely. Todd Hunter (21:15.077) really good at liturgy, but man, we're not as missional as I thought it would be, we're really good at Bible teaching or whatever. Even if your culture is only three or seven, you still, seven years old, you still have the same tasks that you're describing of observe and diagnose your current culture, pick the islands of health and strength, and then create the kind of habit you're talking about. So whether your church is 30 years old or. years old, still might have an established culture that's not helping you with mission. Patrick Wildman (21:46.324) Absolutely, absolutely. And you know, I know we're gonna talk about the spirit, but yeah, programmatically I would say if you wanna be more missionally minded, start running alpha. Todd Hunter (21:53.265) Go ahead, take us there. Todd Hunter (22:00.143) Yeah, well, that's my first question about the spirit. Nice segue. So I think I've asked you this in private, but I sitting here right today, I can't remember the exact answer. Did you guys latch on to Alpha because you were already sort of friendly towards the person, work of the spirit and had made that hospitable move and you saw an alpha a tool you could use for those things? Or did Alpha help you become those things hospitable? more engaging with the spirit or was it a mix? Patrick Wildman (22:33.038) Well, first I would say I was not here when Alpha was first introduced at Christchurch. That was 1997. In fact, no church has run Alpha longer than us at this point. Truro actually was the first church to run it, they have since stopped running it at various points in time. Todd Hunter (22:41.317) Okay. Todd Hunter (22:47.632) Wow. Todd Hunter (22:52.561) Mm-hmm. Todd Hunter (23:01.2) Yeah. Patrick Wildman (23:01.826) We've run it consistently since 1997. So one of the things I noticed about Christchurch when I came here is that it was definitely much more charismatic than... than colonial Presbyterian Church. And I think there's a pretty significant, you know, spiritual renewal movement in the Episcopal Church that definitely had impacted people at Christ Church. But Alpha definitely, I think, brought that to a different place. So, but I also think what Alpha brought in addition to that was this much more missional focus and that missions isn't just going to serve at a soup kitchen. Missions is proclaiming the gospel to our neighbors. I don't think many people at Christchurch were thinking about that. In fact, the whole evangelical Todd Hunter (24:02.672) Yeah. Todd Hunter (24:06.129) Yeah. Todd Hunter (24:13.166) Mm-hmm. Patrick Wildman (24:18.936) Holy Spirit language of Alpha, I think was brand new to Christ Church. Having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, you know, being born again. I don't think these were things that were talked about that much. And I think Ron wanted people to be talking about these things. Yes. And so I think Alpha in his mind was part of the way we bring this change. Todd Hunter (24:24.816) wow, okay. Todd Hunter (24:28.868) Right. Mm-hmm. Todd Hunter (24:38.257) Is Ron McCrary your predecessor? Yeah. Patrick Wildman (24:49.069) You know. Todd Hunter (24:49.563) So seriously commercial for Alpha here, right? I think you and I and Gare Jones and lots of others in C4SO would just so highly commend Alpha. I mean, we can't turn this into an Alpha pitch, but for so many reasons, we would all commend Alpha as not just for helping people come to Christ, which it does, but it literally changes the culture of a church in like nine different ways. Patrick Wildman (25:14.69) changes the culture really, really forces the church once you start to, once you commit to running Alpha on a consistent basis, you really have to then start thinking about how do we become more missional in our thinking in every other area of our church? Or else you're kind of running Alpha in vain. Todd Hunter (25:37.071) Yeah. Todd Hunter (25:41.721) Yeah. Well, you and I would both know that the people who try to run alpha by wedging it into a previously existing culture that isn't hospitable and all that, it doesn't work. You can't. Patrick Wildman (25:53.792) Right. No, it does not. Yeah. But definitely Alpha has helped us become, I think, a more spirit-filled, spirit-centered church, without doubt. Todd Hunter (26:10.319) Yeah. So since we brought this up, I would encourage you if you don't know anything about Alpha, you can just go to Alpha USA dot org and you find anything you want. Also, Gare Jones is teaching track on this at our upcoming clergy conference. And if you're not a C4SO clergy person listening to this, I'm sure you could get the tapes afterwards. But people like Patrick and Gare are are literally leading practitioners of Alpha in America. All right, so Patrick, we're talking here about the third of the values we wanted to talk about today, kingdom, mission, and spirit. You know, I just find that the Holy Spirit's counterintuitive. Like, no one has intuitions, right, about the third person of the Trinity. Like, if you say the word father, you can at least think something. If you say the word son, you can at least think something. But if you say the word Holy Spirit, it's just hard. Like, what are you supposed to think about that? So. When you think over the last 25 years, what are some of the biggest fears and objections that you hear about having just kind of a normal relationship with the third person of the Trinity? Patrick Wildman (27:19.362) I think for a lot of people that I've pastored over the years, is, a lot of it is just mystery. It's so mysterious to them, you what does this mean? I know for a lot of people though, it's fear because they've experienced, and that was certainly my situation. So Colonial Presbyterian Church, I know you know a little bit about that. Todd Hunter (27:42.577) Mm-hmm. Todd Hunter (27:47.59) Mm-hmm. Patrick Wildman (27:49.166) But most of the listeners here do not, but is very prolific church in Kansas City in terms of raising up leaders. One such leader is Mike Bickle. And Mike was the, you know, the leader of International House of Prayer. Before that, it was a Kansas City Metro Fellowship that was planted in 1983. And I was at Colonial. Todd Hunter (28:03.206) Mmm. Todd Hunter (28:13.606) Yeah. Todd Hunter (28:18.651) Sounds right. Yeah. Patrick Wildman (28:19.086) and a lot of my friends started attending there and you know they were telling me that I really needed to go and how powerful it was but I went a few times and I just I could not reconcile what I was experiencing with scripture and Todd Hunter (28:46.328) Mm-hmm. Patrick Wildman (28:49.248) It definitely was, you know, this emphasis on the Holy Spirit, but it just seemed out of control to me. No, no, no, no boundaries. Todd Hunter (29:01.361) Mm-hmm. Patrick Wildman (29:02.942) And so for me, and I think for a lot of people that have maybe been in situations like that, you know, they just, it makes them say, no, no thanks. And that's kind of where I was, honestly. I was like, no thanks. But then I came to Christchurch and experienced Alpha and saw, okay, there's a lot of people here who Todd Hunter (29:16.561) Yeah, yeah. Sure, yeah. Patrick Wildman (29:33.262) pray in tongues, there's a lot of people here who pray for healing and things like that, gifts of the spirit. But it's normal. It's Wimber's supernatural power. Todd Hunter (29:45.912) Mm-hmm. Todd Hunter (29:49.521) being supernaturally natural. No, naturally supernatural. Patrick Wildman (29:54.072) Yeah, it's kind of like there's scriptural boundaries around this. And it really just changed my whole mindset and attitude about, just even for me personally, like, okay, can I be open to this, you know, can I be open to the person and work of the spirit and... Todd Hunter (30:00.625) Mm-hmm. Todd Hunter (30:09.008) Yeah. Patrick Wildman (30:21.88) you know, came to realize, well, yes, I can. Like, he's good, he's God. And some of the things that I had experienced before, I think were not necessarily the spirit. Todd Hunter (30:26.683) Yeah. Todd Hunter (30:38.457) Yeah. So I've been observing you guys now, I'm just thinking for probably close to 20 years by you guys, mean, Christ Church, Overland Park. And it is sincerely to me a really good model of a local church that does three things really well simultaneously, centering the Bible, as you said, but taking seriously the person, work of the spirit. But then also that's within an overall. Anglican vibe that you know some people would want to use the words liturgical or sacramental or something So, you know for I don't know how long you know people in the Anglican world have been using that term three streams When you look back, why is that important to you? Like why is that a magic mix? Patrick Wildman (31:28.918) Well, you know, as a business major in college and then got my master's in accounting, tax, which seems like a million years ago and wonder why did I ever do that? But in that business training and marketing and that kind of thing, you you, you learn about the importance of having, having your mark, your place in the market, your, your knit, you know, Todd Hunter (31:40.977) Heh Todd Hunter (31:58.405) Yeah. Patrick Wildman (31:58.926) And I think in terms of just like from that crude perspective, it's something that almost no one else is doing. Todd Hunter (32:06.598) Yeah. Todd Hunter (32:11.824) Mm-hmm. Patrick Wildman (32:13.89) You know, and so for a lot of people that come here, and in fact, a lot of people who are coming here now, they're very much attracted to that. But over the years, there definitely have been people who've come that don't quite know what to do with it all and really want, you know, there's always people who want to get their hands on the steering wheel, right? Todd Hunter (32:37.702) Yeah. Patrick Wildman (32:38.446) They either want, you know, they're solidly evangelical, so they want to pull it more in that direction. Or they're charismatic and they want us to, you but I just, I love it. I can't. Todd Hunter (32:44.015) Yeah. Mm-hmm. Patrick Wildman (32:57.184) I was, I was coached by our friend, Jay Fowler. So we were, he was coaching me and prepping me for my sabbatical last year. And he said, you know, I think it'd be good if you went to some other churches while you're on sabbatical and just experience. I said, Jay, come on. No, I'm not doing it. I've been to every kind of church in this. I'm almost 50 years old. I've been to all of them. Todd Hunter (33:05.915) Mm-hmm. Patrick Wildman (33:26.794) And this is what I love. I'm gonna, you know, this is what I want to do. So I just, you know. Todd Hunter (33:28.945) Hmm Todd Hunter (33:35.067) So, so did you visit your own church on sabbatical? Patrick Wildman (33:38.392) You know, I actually decided if I ever go on sabbatical again, I am coming to worship. I don't care. I'll just sit in the pews. But, you know, I just, I watched on live stream. Like I just, I love it. And I'm seeing more and more people now being drawn to it. It used to be weird to people. 20 years ago, they didn't quite know what to do with it. Todd Hunter (33:44.453) Yeah. Yeah. Patrick Wildman (34:05.582) And we're seeing a lot of people who saying, yeah, this is what we want. We're tired of, you know, a 50-minute sermon and then, you know, see you next week. Todd Hunter (34:10.257) Hmm. Todd Hunter (34:22.149) Yeah. Patrick Wildman (34:25.272) You know, we're seeing people who are really kind of craving this unique blend of who we are. But as a leader, you know, I know I'm speaking to leaders, is you've got to be firm. You've got to differentiate, you know. So you've got to stay connected, you've got to have a smile on your face, you've got to be kind and gentle, but when people want to pull things, turn that wheel in a different direction, you've got to say no. And we have done that over the years, but it's hard. And there are people who try to do that, but... Todd Hunter (34:50.255) Mm-hmm. Todd Hunter (35:00.847) Yeah. Todd Hunter (35:07.141) Yeah. Patrick Wildman (35:11.008) We're at the point now that the culture. Todd Hunter (35:14.159) Yeah, enforces itself. Yeah. Yeah. Patrick Wildman (35:15.766) Yeah, it's pretty well set. so people realize pretty quickly, that's not going to work. They're not going to go for that. But it's hard work. Todd Hunter (35:30.393) Yeah, so it makes me think of that book you mentioned about the habit too. I can't remember the title of it now. Yeah, we'll try to remember to put that in the show notes. All right, Patrick, let's close with this. You know, this is the series that we're doing on C4SO's Vision and Values. so today we've done Kingdom, Mission and Spirit. You know, when you're just somewhere out and about in the world and somebody asks you about C4SO and you think of those sorts of things, Patrick Wildman (35:35.406) how it's happening. Todd Hunter (36:00.273) What's the like joy in your heart as you try to tell somebody, this is kind of what we're all about? Patrick Wildman (36:12.93) Well, I have lot of joy in my heart about C4SO because I've been on this journey with you from the very beginning and to see what we have become and... You and you knew this would happen. You knew we would grow and it's just really been, it's been fun to watch. I think, but I think in the Anglican world, I think we are unique and that uniqueness really gives me a lot of joy because I think. Todd Hunter (36:57.041) Mm. Patrick Wildman (36:58.122) I think we have something to offer in that uniqueness. And I know some Anglicans have a hard time fully wrapping their hearts and their minds around some of our uniqueness. But things like engineering from the mission field back. Things like that that are, I think, Todd Hunter (37:10.809) Mm-hmm. Todd Hunter (37:18.425) Mm-hmm. Patrick Wildman (37:25.786) they do make us unique and allow us, I think, to be able to have some positive influence. And obviously we can learn from others, you know, and we do, but I think we also have some unique gifts to share with the wider communion of the Anglican world. You know, and it gives me joy. not only to think about the opportunities that we have to do that, but the times that we do, we do actually get to do that, because we do. We have a lot of people in our diocese who are serving out beyond our diocese and making a great impact in our province. that, I just have a great sense of joy and pride in that. Todd Hunter (38:03.428) Yeah. Todd Hunter (38:22.149) Yeah, I think my final thought is, I always wonder if people really believe me when I say this, but there's a sense in which C4SO is, of course, not me. It's not even the institution of C4SO. Lots of people have heard me say it's our churches, it's our clergy, that's where the action is. But in our context today, I think I really want to say that no, C4SO is all about taking Jesus serious about the gospel of the kingdom. It's all about a kingdom engagement with culture, missionally college, missional, ecclesiology, missional leadership, God's empowering presence, formation, the kind of things we've been talking today. Like that's what I would want put on my tombstone. Like here's a group of people who took this serious and they took it serious for the sake of others, for being agents of healing in the world. And, and of course we're very far from perfect, but I agree with you when, when I see these values being lived out in and lay people or clergy or churches, programmatically, it's fantastic. It's a lot of joy. Patrick Wildman (39:24.738) take Jesus and his kingdom seriously while at the same time not taking ourselves too seriously. And I think that's an important piece of it because I think there's an authenticity, a humanness in that that is attractive. we're not, we don't, we, Todd Hunter (39:32.27) Yeah, amen. Patrick Wildman (39:54.146) We don't want to think more highly of ourselves than we ought. Todd Hunter (39:58.735) Yeah, like we didn't dream these values up. Patrick Wildman (40:01.262) Exactly. Yeah, we didn't like have this like great epiphany where, why don't we emphasize kingdom, you know? We've just simply tried to do what Jesus has asked us to do. Todd Hunter (40:05.957) Yeah. Todd Hunter (40:19.953) That's a good way to end. So go ahead. Patrick Wildman (40:20.11) But C4S is not you, but it is kind of. And it's been your vision from the beginning and it's been a great privilege for all of us to help make it a reality. Todd Hunter (40:28.153) Ha ha ha. Todd Hunter (40:40.931) Yeah, thank you. That's been great. All right, Patrick, thanks for doing this with us today. Patrick Wildman (40:46.082) Thank you.