Todd Hunter (00:05.72) Hey, Sarah Smith, welcome to the C4SO Podcast. So do I have this right? This is your first time on a podcast. Sarah Smith (00:08.579) Thanks for having me. Sarah Smith (00:14.605) This is my first time. Todd Hunter (00:16.728) Well, you don't look like you're trembling. Sarah Smith (00:19.319) No, I try to keep the cool exterior. Todd Hunter (00:21.834) Okay, got it. Well, you're fooling me. look, you're looking cool. And not only is this your first podcast, but you're in a first in a new role. Let's just talk about your journey for a moment, because I think that will help our listeners with the rest of our conversation today. So just quickly, give us a sense of, you know, conversion, call to ministry, and then let's talk about this new calling. So first, just give us a quick bit of conversion. Sarah Smith (00:50.735) So all the brief things. Yes, I was invited to church when I was around 15. I did not grow up in household of faith. gosh, the first time I went, saw the boy I liked, thought I'll be back next. I did. And it turns out he went to a different church. So I was at a He was just visiting that day. But. Todd Hunter (00:52.727) Yes. Todd Hunter (00:58.798) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Todd Hunter (01:06.83) that'll do it. Todd Hunter (01:11.854) Oh shoot, so he was just visiting that day? Oh no. Sarah Smith (01:19.155) week after week in that youth group, there was somebody teaching from the Bible. And there was just a sense of the presence of God there and the scriptures were true. And so was, it didn't feel like a decision when I think I was asked to decide there was sense of God's presence already there that I was like, well, I want to keep saying yes here. Todd Hunter (01:24.238) Mmm. Todd Hunter (01:29.395) Wow. Yeah. Todd Hunter (01:39.374) Hmm. Todd Hunter (01:43.894) Yeah, that's so great. We haven't talked about that story before. All right, so what about call to ministry? When did you first have this sense of being called to church work? Sarah Smith (01:55.757) Yeah, well, I was a student at Trinity University and a part of intervarsity. And that had been a big part of my formation. friends and others had kind of encouraged me to think about it. I had been a student leader and all of that, but just wasn't interested. My kind of byline was like, I will be glad to support every ministry. That's what I would like to do. Todd Hunter (02:01.934) Okay. Todd Hunter (02:20.642) Yes. Yeah. Sarah Smith (02:25.409) but just had a sense of kind of for a lack of a better word, calling, heard the Lord speak in a moment that was unexpected. And so then gathered friends around me in the moment to pray and had a pretty profound sense of the presence of God in that moment. And probably remember that even more. mean, the word he spoke was ministry, but I remember that even more than the particular word. Todd Hunter (02:36.748) Yeah. Todd Hunter (02:41.272) Hmm. Yeah. Todd Hunter (02:51.19) Yeah, so how old would you have been at this time? Sarah Smith (02:54.5) I was... I was... I believe I was 20 or 21. Yeah. Yeah. Todd Hunter (03:00.012) Okay, so really young, yeah, like me. I was young too when I heard the call. All right, so some of our listeners know who you are and would be up to date with all your vocational details, but others wouldn't. So Peter Quelo, the founder of Church of the Cross, took a different position a number of months ago, and you guys have been in a search process, and the search turned up Sarah Smith. as the new rector of Church of the Cross, tell us what was that like? Sarah Smith (03:30.031) it was surprising. think I am utterly delighted. But if you had asked me a year ago this time, hey, do think that's what's on the horizon? I would have said, certainly not. Which I think is a bit of a theme of my life is certainly not. It was on the horizon many times. But it was actually through exploring kind of what God was doing in church planting. Todd Hunter (03:33.486) Mmm. Todd Hunter (03:40.035) Yeah. Todd Hunter (03:46.719) Mm-hmm. Sarah Smith (04:00.143) through our time together, Mission Chad, and through time with others that I just suddenly had a sense of, oh, wow, I already knew that I loved these people and I love this place, but there's a vision here growing. so engaging in that process was really helpful and refining. It was an open-handed process the night before I got... Todd Hunter (04:03.086) Mm. Todd Hunter (04:11.629) Yeah. Todd Hunter (04:16.536) Yeah. Todd Hunter (04:24.451) Yeah. Mm-hmm. Sarah Smith (04:28.435) all, I had a strong sense that I am called to serve whoever is in the rector seat and was delighted to do so. yeah, it's been a journey. It's been a surprise, but I'm really grateful. Todd Hunter (04:34.733) Wow. Yeah. Todd Hunter (04:44.078) Well, those are two really beautiful train tracks for you to run on. I love these people and I have a vision for this place. Anybody leading a church would do well to rediscover that, right? When you've been in it for years, sometimes you can miss that first little childlike expression that's so beautiful of I love these people and I have a vision for this place. So hopefully that will refresh some of our listeners as well. All right, well, let's get into our work together today. As you know, we've been going through a series on the podcast of C4SO's Vision and Values. And in the last podcast, I talked about spiritual formation and Anglican spirituality. So let's, let's again, just get into your story a bit. Do you remember a moment, like I could share my moment, but this podcast is about you. Do you remember a moment where you kind of feel like I first sort of discovered spiritual formation or I first. understood its importance or I had a major paradigm shift about it or something. Like, how did you come to participate in spiritual formation? Sarah Smith (05:51.023) You know, for me, I don't think I learned the term spiritual formation. Well, maybe later in college or after college, spiritual disciplines came in, not spiritual formation. But I think I was really kind of inducted into it through, inner varsity would call it leadership formation. And so there was a lot there. Todd Hunter (05:58.008) Hmm. Todd Hunter (06:03.618) Yes. Yeah. Todd Hunter (06:16.267) Okay, yep. Sarah Smith (06:20.195) that was integrated. It was integrated both disciplines and learning and practice that was kind of happening at the same time. Todd Hunter (06:22.136) Hmm. Todd Hunter (06:27.47) So let me see if I'm hearing you right that for intervarsity, the practices of leadership were fully integrated with, we might say, what we call now the practices of spiritual formation. They were parts of a whole for intervarsity. Sarah Smith (06:45.293) Yeah, at least in my experience they were. That was a big part of it. And a lot of the same things, think, InterVarsity is probably most known for, inductive Bible study and script study in that way. But those same skills were really brought to bear in the life of the community and life of the spirit. so... Todd Hunter (06:47.406) Mm-hmm. Todd Hunter (06:55.424) Yeah, right. Sarah Smith (07:09.455) maybe the old school terms would be observation, interpretation, application, right? know, very, very, very radical, you know, in that. But even as language was being played around with, there was some part of it where some of that language shifted a little bit around attentiveness. You know, are you are you attentive to the text? Are you attentive to the spirit? Are you attentive to the context and to the relationships you have? Todd Hunter (07:13.718) Yes, yeah. Yeah, Todd Hunter (07:27.382) Okay. Sarah Smith (07:37.677) And then out of attentiveness, you curious? Are you asking questions and seeking to move toward understanding in that? I mean, again, these things also resemble something like lectio, right? But then some kind of response, okay, well, how do I live with integrity from the word received? What does that look like? How do we discern all together? Todd Hunter (07:40.706) Yeah. Todd Hunter (07:49.71) All right. Todd Hunter (07:55.478) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I hear you. I can also hear like overtones and undertones of Peterson or de Cassade, you know, practicing the presence of God or now and, you know, wounded healers, you know, being aware of ourself. So that's really cool. So I hear you saying it came to you kind of organically. So now if you think about what people call the kind of modern, you know, spiritual formation movement that may be you know, Foster, Willard, Peterson, now in, you know, speed up to James Bryan Smith, now John Mark Comer, et cetera. Like, do you remember a moment when that slice of this world came onto your radar screen? Sarah Smith (08:42.583) Hmm. Sarah Smith (08:50.583) You know, I don't remember. think I've always had somebody has always dropped probably a Eugene Peterson quote somewhere along the way, right? That feels very familiar in some of that. think probably a long obedience in the same direction was the, you know, Todd Hunter (08:58.955) Okay, yeah. Mm-hmm. Todd Hunter (09:06.732) Right. Yeah, certainly spirit or spirituality for pastors is Peterson. Yeah. Sarah Smith (09:12.527) Yes. And I think that, that, that in particular work was brought early on. Like, I think I had that in college, which of course, a long obedience when you're 20, it was kind of a little bit funny, but you still feel it at 20. You know, some of those things I think were, were picked up along the way, but I think for me, there's been this big thread of, you know, Todd Hunter (09:18.232) Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Todd Hunter (09:27.884) Yeah. Sarah Smith (09:41.625) from Philippians, I believe that, but let us live up to what we have already attained. And so there's just been a little bit of a like, I don't know that I need 30 books, but I probably need to be faithful to what I have attained. Attaining more is not the goal. Todd Hunter (09:47.374) Hmm. Yeah. Todd Hunter (09:52.971) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's yeah, that's very well said or the passage of working out our salvation with a salvation that we already have with with fear and trembling. Yeah. Yeah, thank you. Well, let's switch a little bit now to kind of a professional setting with spiritual formation, because so many of the listeners of this podcast are leaders. What do you find if you you've been in ministry now for a number of years? What do you find are your biggest challenges in consistently working on the formation of your soul? Sarah Smith (10:48.015) I think part of it has been that cultivation of attentiveness. Todd Hunter (10:55.47) Hmm. Sarah Smith (10:57.261) Because I think and to stay and that staying curious as well in the midst of so much happening. I think working on the formation of your soul while pursuing seminary and raising littles and working all at the same time, there's some part of it where the temptation is to see the formation of your soul is adding on 30 more practices. But really, Todd Hunter (11:05.291) Yeah. Todd Hunter (11:14.798) Mm-hmm. Sarah Smith (11:26.829) maintaining the practices you feel like God has invited you into, scripture, nothing fancy, but then just remaining attentive to the Spirit's work through the teachers you didn't ask for. Todd Hunter (11:32.216) Yeah. Todd Hunter (11:40.878) Yeah, it seems like you don't meet anybody these days. How you doing? Oh man, I'm really busy. There's exceptions to every rule, but to your point, whether it's a young mom or somebody who's starting a window washing business or somebody who's getting promoted in a corporation, it doesn't matter. It seems like everybody's really busy, really challenged, et cetera. And so you're right, and I think this is a really important point for us to sit with for a minute. Is it? Focus on our formation into Christ or especially if you put it as narrowly as a focus on the spiritual disciplines Cannot be seen as something we add to an already over busy overcalendered over indebted life. You're right. We'll never do it We'll never stick to it. We just end up feeling guilty or we get up at 430 in the morning We find out by Friday. We're just cranky and so we're trying to get more holy and then we're at work We're all cranky because we begin up at 430 in the morning. So I can't obviously I'm not putting down morning devotions, but I'm saying For the people who imagine that whatever spiritual formation is is just gonna drive me into over-business, we've understood it. What we want to do is take our already life as we presently know it, again, whether we're a young mom or a stay-at-home dad, no matter what we're doing, it's our life as we presently know it that is the soil of our discipleship. That's where we actually practice things like patience and long-suffering and love and those sorts of things. And even, Some of the spiritual disciplines can be practiced in that way. Like you can practice Sabbath by, and I frequently do this by just getting up from my desk and walking outside for 45 or 60 seconds and saying little prayers and coming back in and doing what I'm doing. So that's a super important point that people have an imagination that you can pursue your spiritual transformation. You not only can, you have to do it within your actual life. is no us apart from the life that we presently know. So that's a... A really helpful point, thank you. And I guess I wanna say that fundamental to any aspect of formation is noticing. I sometimes feel like I joke that Eugene Peterson invented the word alert. Because somehow, like if I think Peterson and do word association, I think of words like alert or presence or noticing as you said. Because it's so fundamental. Like if you're not self-aware, if you're not aware of the people and events of your life, if you're not aware of God. Todd Hunter (14:04.79) You can't really pursue this. Sarah Smith (14:06.969) Yeah. And I remember, I believe it was Ronald Rawhiser who wrote Domestic Monastery. And I just remember it's a very short little book, but even in the thinking of all of the intrusions in your life, and especially if it's small children was the example, but those as, well, that's the monastic bell for you. You don't get to... Todd Hunter (14:14.093) Mm-hmm. Todd Hunter (14:25.186) Yeah. Todd Hunter (14:30.519) beautiful, yeah. Sarah Smith (14:32.185) Sometimes when you take up something and put it down, it's not always based on are you ready or is this at your leisure? But those are the bids of Christ. Todd Hunter (14:39.363) Yeah. That's lovely. I heard of that book, but I didn't read it. That's super, that's really helpful. All right, let's think now about the younger Christian leaders who listen to this podcast, who, you know, they're a couple of decades behind you and many decades behind me. So concerning spiritual formation, what do you say to the young leaders coming up in Church of the Cross or any of the leaders that you interact with? when they're just getting started in their vocational journey, how do you find yourself commending the inward journey to them? Sarah Smith (15:16.697) Yeah. I think, I think to engage in the inward journey with the spirit, there has to be, mean, in Bishop Todd, you say this a lot, there are non-anxious attentiveness. And so there's some part whenever you're thinking about your vocational journey, it has to begin with a trust that Jesus sees the end well enough that you are freed to be attentive to the moment. That you... Todd Hunter (15:26.605) Hmm. Todd Hunter (15:37.628) Mm. Todd Hunter (15:42.67) Wait, let's sit with that for a minute because Jesus has the future we can sit in this moment. That's a hook, Sarah. That's a book for you someday. That's a really big beautiful idea because Jesus has the future. We're free to be present in this moment. Love that idea. Why do you think that sticks out to you? Sarah Smith (15:52.975) you Sarah Smith (16:03.599) I think because in any vocational journey, but especially if you're thinking somebody vocationing toward ministry or something in that you have a picture of what that path looks like and that path will likely change. That path will likely be different than what you set out from. And there will be a temptation and not just one point, but a lot of points. Todd Hunter (16:11.054) Mm-hmm. Todd Hunter (16:16.045) Hmm. Todd Hunter (16:31.598) Yeah. Sarah Smith (16:32.205) to compromise your integrity. What I mean by that is your wholeness, your rootedness in Christ, you pursue to try to get yourself back on that path you thought God had for you. But I think if you trust that Jesus sees the end, then you can be attentive to the day and trust that this too is part of my formation, that I'm willing to receive what looks like setbacks. Todd Hunter (16:34.146) Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Todd Hunter (16:55.971) Yeah. Sarah Smith (17:00.599) or diversions from the road as God's love of me over my output. Todd Hunter (17:07.756) Yeah, wow, okay, every young Christian leader, this is probably too much to put on a mirror, but give it a shot. Because God has the future, I can be integrist today. And as Sarah said, that doesn't mean don't lie, don't cheat, don't steal. It means I can be whole in my heart, soul, and mind because I know God's got the future. Love that, that might go on my mirror. Beautiful. All right, just before we get off the topic of spiritual formation, Sarah, let's do one last thing. You know, as you're coming into being the rector and the leader of Church of the Cross in Austin, and even if you just think about the years you've been there and the work you've done with Peter and Kimberly and others, when you guys think about doing spiritual formation, like in a congregation, so like not in an individual leader, but in a congregation, what are the sort of communal practices like preaching or programs or vision casting or whatever? Like, how have you found yourselves trying to engage the congregation as a whole? in an understanding and practice of formation. Sarah Smith (18:12.687) Yeah, we kind of launched in this last year one thing that we frankly, I think ripped off from another church. We saw that they were doing what are called J-terms. So January or June terms. So kind of like a class, but compressed into a shorter period of time. So we delayed the starts of our neighborhood groups, our small groups, until February so that we could have January time. Todd Hunter (18:23.79) What is that? Todd Hunter (18:34.05) Okay, yep. Sarah Smith (18:42.155) set apart and people could choose a particular area that they like to seek God's transformation in. And as we were as we were setting that up, there were a few things that felt significant that whatever, whatever the topic was that somebody wanted Sabbath, forgiveness, you know, some one of our parishioners was a part of putting together the Todd Hunter (18:42.678) I got it, Yep. Mm-hmm. Sarah Smith (19:11.455) the documentary Join or Die. I don't know if you've ever seen that. It's on the Robert Putnam's work. And so people were watching that and having good conversation. Part of it though was as we thought about their formation and ours, it had to be opted into. Like there has to be agency. That's such a critical component. Todd Hunter (19:23.023) Mm-hmm. Todd Hunter (19:35.276) Hmm. Yeah. Sarah Smith (19:41.193) it needed to be communal. So, right. think there any practice becomes about me keeping rather than being kept. and I'm kept by this people, not communal, but then the other thing was it needed to be for the sake of others was, I know, right. But, but it was the, can lead a really riveting session on Sabbath. Todd Hunter (19:43.543) Mm-hmm. Todd Hunter (19:52.845) Yeah. Todd Hunter (19:58.44) great, sounds like a good diocese. Sarah Smith (20:10.701) But what difference does your Sabbath make to your neighbor? Todd Hunter (20:13.39) Or to your family or whatever. Yeah. Sarah Smith (20:15.233) Exactly. so whoever you might consider your neighbor. But in what ways is your practice in fact for the sake of others? Todd Hunter (20:21.806) Love it, Yeah, that's great. All right, let's switch gears to Anglican Spirituality, the second part of the podcast that we released last time. And I know over the years you've heard me talk about this analogy of when I discovered Anglican Spirituality sort of seriously 16 years ago, it felt like this amazing treasure chest. of kind of like tools of discipleship and tools of formation and even tools of evangelism. What first got your attention and kind of drew you to Anglican spirituality? Sarah Smith (20:59.231) You know, I still remember my first Sunday at Christchurch here in Austin. And there was, it's twofold, right? It's the Anglican spirituality, but it is also the health and vibrancy of the people. And we came in at a time where we had had some really hard, I talked about those paths going in different directions, really hard diverting by the Lord. Todd Hunter (21:03.267) Mm. Todd Hunter (21:17.069) Yeah. Todd Hunter (21:25.389) Yeah. Sarah Smith (21:27.727) And so we were hurting, and we came in and there was something almost instantly that was communicated through the liturgy and through the people that this was a place that knew how to hold suffering. And I do think that's true about Anglican spirituality, that there is something here that is both steadfast, unwavering, undaunted, but can also hold suffering. Todd Hunter (21:29.582) Hmm. Todd Hunter (21:42.286) Todd Hunter (21:51.694) Mm-hmm. Sarah Smith (21:57.219) and things like the Eucharist and the Eucharistic Liturgy and Week In and Week Out were, were so formative for me, still are. I think, I think the Eucharist is just, just the best. There is something that is, is, is truly happening there, that I need. Todd Hunter (22:00.43) Mm-hmm. Todd Hunter (22:08.845) Yeah. Todd Hunter (22:14.762) Mm-hmm. Todd Hunter (22:21.23) I love that imagery of something that can carry a human life. And in your case, as you said, for you guys, a kind of confused or wondering life about, what does this mean? Where is life going, et cetera? So I'm just picturing in my mind now the various elements of the liturgical services, like the weaves of a basket and and those strong weaves are able to hold like a whole human life and a whole congregations life. I love the picture of that, that that's what you experienced. Sarah Smith (22:56.803) Yeah. Well, and the service, I mean, the thing that I continue to just appreciate week in and week out, is just, is this, there is the grace of a thousand on-ramps. And what I mean by that is sometimes, and you know, I led large group gatherings with intervarsity in different areas. And there were kind of a couple of on-ramps when you came in. to a gathering like that. There might be one that happened in the worship or one that happened with the sermon or maybe the weight of that gathering held onto, okay, they're gonna make this invitation and then we're gonna play this one song. So if you missed those onramps or for whatever reason, it didn't connect in that moment. You might've missed it. It came and went. But the Anglican liturgy gives a thousand onramps. Todd Hunter (23:27.416) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Todd Hunter (23:37.559) Yeah. Todd Hunter (23:43.17) Hmm, right. Todd Hunter (23:52.589) Yeah. Sarah Smith (23:53.199) you're reconnecting to the presence of God and the activity of God in the moment. That just feels like such a grace. Todd Hunter (23:58.446) Yeah. So when, you know, just either friends in your life, you know, you know, extended family or when you're doing new newcomers meetings at Church of the Cross, when you find yourself commending Anglican spirituality, I know you well enough to know that you're not standing up and saying, hey, we're better than the Presbyterians and the Lutherans and the Methodists and, you know, avy free or whatever. I know you're not saying that, that that's never our point. So how do you find yourself, how and why do you find yourself commending Anglican spirituality to others? Sarah Smith (24:36.791) I the first thing I find myself commending is... robustly scriptural it is. People often anticipate the degree of tradition, say, that's part of it. But I think what I notice people being surprised by and so commend to others is you're gonna get more scripture than maybe you have been in your current setting. The liturgy of your current setting may not have as much scripture in it and not just in the readings. Todd Hunter (25:06.179) Yeah. Todd Hunter (25:10.68) Yeah. Sarah Smith (25:13.071) but in the way the service is crafted and the words we speak can affirm. Sarah Smith (25:21.199) Yeah, and I think for me, and again, I'm sorry to belabor the point about the Eucharist, but there is something really beautiful. I think of, and now I'm blanking on artists that would resemble this, but different paintings that you end up zooming in on, and they end up using a thousand different colors in one space when you zoom in. And I think for me, my prior experience with communion, probably had about a couple of colors, a couple of notes, usually ones of reflective contrition were probably the main notes that were being hit on that. And the Eucharist in Anglican worship has such a palette, such a variety of being met by God and encounter there. Todd Hunter (25:53.454) Mm-hmm. Todd Hunter (25:59.469) Yeah. Sarah Smith (26:19.151) There's homecoming, there's joy and delight. There is room for contrition and remorse. It continues to expand for me. Todd Hunter (26:27.853) Yeah. Todd Hunter (26:31.584) Yeah. So let's talk a bit about the role that kind of the bent of our heart, the bent of our will, what I frequently call intentionality. And, you know, you heard the last podcast and I, talked about this that, I don't know where I got this, it feels like it was highly intuitive, but I, like, I don't ever remember, like, thinking about this. I remember just feeling it that you use the word on ramps a minute ago, I've tend to I love that imagery. But I've tended, especially when I think back 15, 16 years ago, I think I was thinking of those on ramps as like spiritual practices. So that for me, I felt like as I brought my intentionality to things like the confession, like I'm not just reading the confession, I'm actually confessing my sins to God in the middle of my congregation. In fact, I remember the first time at Holy Trinity in Costa Mesa. again, this is like 16 years ago, I remember kneeling in the midst of our congregation, like three or four rows up, kneeling, and we're all confessing together. And I remember feeling the Holy Spirit about as much as I've ever felt in my life and just thinking, wow, what the heck is this? You know, and it just made me realize that if we're actually sort of doing business with God ourselves and with the congregation, something happens. So talk for a bit about the importance of this not just being rote, as some people say, or flat or boring or old and, know, et cetera, and how it works for formation, how Anglican spirituality works for formation if we actually intended to do so. Sarah Smith (28:16.473) Yeah. Yeah, there are a few things that I hold in mind. I'm sure I got this from somewhere, maybe, but I just remember after being ordained as a priest, and you know, there are just so many things that you learn. Where do you put your hands? How do you hold this up? What are the words you Right, there are a lot of little things, but this thing that I have just continued to repeat, Todd Hunter (28:34.997) Hmm Todd Hunter (28:38.35) Yeah. Sarah Smith (28:45.711) to myself, to God, each time is major on sincerity, minor on mechanics. And so just trying to have a sincere heart before the Lord in each time. And just kind of repeat that to myself when it's easy to kind of get caught up in this needs to move here, instead having a sense of major on sincerity, minor on mechanics. Todd Hunter (28:47.061) Mm-hmm. Todd Hunter (28:52.632) Hmm. Todd Hunter (29:07.266) Mm-hmm. Todd Hunter (29:13.462) Yeah, then I would add, and pleading with God to help us. I was doing a service, I won't give the details, but recently, and I was so tired, and I said to a colleague, friend of mine, just pray for me. I don't know how I'm gonna make it through this service, it was an important, sort of intense service. But I did what you're suggesting. like in the big blocks of the service, I would just say like, Holy Spirit, please help me here. I would try to bring myself back to, Sarah Smith (29:16.951) Yes. Todd Hunter (29:43.296) alertness, presence, intentionality, all the things we're talking about. And I remember right before I got in the pulpit, just again, feeling so tired, saying, come on, Jesus, just please help me here another 10 or 15 minutes. And when it was all over, I felt so happy, like so much joy that I thought, my gosh, God was actually with me. Like he actually helped me get through this because like you said, I was trying to bring the sincerity. of a servant's heart to serving this moment and then you find the presence of God actually meeting you. Sarah Smith (30:19.983) Yeah, yeah. And again, I mean, those on ramps and those kind of moments, even those moments of realizing I don't have it, whatever it is, I don't have it. But saying, okay, I'm just gonna embrace the grace that there is an on ramp here. There's an on ramp in calling out to God silently or aloud for the rescue and the sincerity and softness of heart. Todd Hunter (30:40.79) Mm-hmm. Todd Hunter (30:44.482) Yeah, and it's been uncanny that the amount of feedback I got about that, positive feedback I got about that sermon and me just sort of shaking my head, kind like the apostle Paul, know, just showing up in my weakness. And then, of course, God shows up in power where when I show up feeling energetic and good and sort of I got this, it's, know, I'm not saying that's a bad thing. It's just very moving to know that you were actually held in a moment. Sarah Smith (31:01.348) What? Todd Hunter (31:14.54) by the power of God, just by trying to bring yourself to the moment. Sarah Smith (31:18.541) Yeah. Yeah. Todd Hunter (31:20.472) All right, sorry, did you want to say something more? Sarah Smith (31:23.875) No, I was just going to say it's never a bad thing to need the rescue of God. It's also not an insecure thing. Todd Hunter (31:28.91) Mm-hmm. Yeah, yes, that's right. That's well said. Yeah. Let's talk about one more thing before we wrap up with kind of a C4SO question. You know, this could be said, I think, about any form of worship, know, Pentecostal or Eastern Orthodox or, you know, I don't know that they're the extremes, but, sort of anything in between. I know in the in the Jesus movement, Calvary Chapel Vineyard World that I came out of as a young man. You you might find yourself that like from the stage, they're leading this very happy, clappy song. But you came to church this morning and your grandmother's in the hospital and is probably going to die today. And so I don't feel happy, clappy or you come in feeling really joyful over something and they're singing sort of sad songs or whatever. So if you think of the various elements of the liturgy, well, Sarah Smith (32:13.06) Yeah. Todd Hunter (32:29.846) man, like you said, those on ramps can also feel like off ramps or they're not working for me as an on ramp today in the space I'm in. So I've heard over the last 16 years, various wise Anglican leaders talk about when that happens, just sort of sit in the congregation and going back to that basket we talked about, let the elements of the liturgy just hold you. And you can actually sit there and in a sense, Sarah Smith (32:55.747) Yeah. Todd Hunter (32:59.596) The congregation is like doing its work sort of on your behalf or with you. I don't know the right way to articulate this, but it's something I know that I've felt that as I just sit in the presence that even if I'm not feeling particularly connected to a particular onramp, I can still be held in that moment by everybody else. Have you ever talked to people about that in your church or felt that yourself? Sarah Smith (33:28.677) definitely. And I, and I think in those moments, there is, mean, again, it is a, it is a grace. It is a grace to be held by both the congregation being happy, clappy when I don't feel it, because that's real. That matters whether I feel it or not. Todd Hunter (33:44.856) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Todd Hunter (33:50.894) Yeah. Sarah Smith (33:53.557) And similarly, if I'm happy clappy and it's boy, we're, we're about to do the great litany, you know, really, you know, let it go. there is some part where I belong to these people and these people belong to me. And so we participate in this together again, not just for ourselves or how we're coming in, but for one another. Todd Hunter (33:59.68) Yeah, right Todd Hunter (34:15.416) Yeah. Yeah, maybe what we're pointing at here, now that I think about it, is the unavoidable communal nature of spiritual formation. You know, I remember especially learning this from Dallas, that fundamental to being human is that we're a social person. And then if you add to that all the body life stuff that comes to us from the New Testament, know, had Jesus had the body, all the Pauline injunctions around, you know, the unity of the body and stuff. Maybe that's what we're really talking about here is that In the same way that there's an unavoidable communal element to formation, there's an unavoidable communal aspect to worship, whether it's liturgical, strongly liturgical or not, that community body life plays a role in that, in that we both give and receive when we can't give something ourself, we receive it along with or from the body around us, you think? Sarah Smith (35:15.381) yeah. And I think sometimes there can creep in a little bit of a fear of losing, like thinking about being willing to be somber in a moment when you do feel happy clappy. There's sometimes this fear of like, but then will I lose it? Todd Hunter (35:33.592) Yeah. Todd Hunter (35:37.324) Or am I being insincere? Yeah. Sarah Smith (35:40.739) Yes. And so there's some part of that, that, that says, like I can't even think about a Sunday that, I was feeling great. but then in attentiveness and through the songs, there was some, some sense of, gosh, there are some people really hurting this morning. And that doesn't diminish that the joy of the Lord is my strength, but it does allow me to pray and sing and lead from a different posture that is Todd Hunter (36:03.789) Right. Todd Hunter (36:10.604) Yeah. Yeah, or to go back to our motto, maybe it means that we bring the realness of who we are, not just to leading worship on a Sunday, but to any ministerial activity, we bring who we are in service to the whole. So we don't demand everybody give in to who we are, but in a moment, but we we bring that moment without denying it or, you know, being in any way dishonest. Sarah Smith (36:11.276) serve. Sarah Smith (36:28.685) Yeah. Todd Hunter (36:40.622) But we bring it in service to the whole. Sarah Smith (36:43.757) Yeah, exactly. Todd Hunter (36:45.91) Okay, so just before we go, as we said when we started, we've been doing this series on the vision and values of C4SO. So you've been around a number of years now. Let's just close by, if you have an anecdote or just a description about how you've seen formation and sacrament, being a part of the life of C4SO and contributing to the life that we have together. Sarah Smith (37:11.631) Yeah, I think it's a little bit hard to name, but it's more of the interactions that I've had with with clergy's and congregations, this kind of undercurrent. And I think this is true for gifts of C4SO within and within gifts of Anglicanism. I think working in college ministry, there was kind of this question. was often out there and it was this question of am I being formed or am I being met by God? But I think Anglican spirituality and the way that it's lived into and see for us so I think our question very much is how? How am I being formed? How am I being met? That there is this undercurrent of trust of no God is God is at work. Todd Hunter (37:44.366) Hmm. Todd Hunter (38:00.01) Yeah. Todd Hunter (38:07.586) Yeah. Sarah Smith (38:08.173) God is doing things. I don't know that I see it, but I'm seeking to see it. Todd Hunter (38:13.868) Yeah, I think I see what you're saying that you're recognizing kind of a settledness in our corporate culture that I would take as a great compliment. I, know, everybody's heard me say this a thousand times, but for me, it just comes out of that imagination that I got from Dallas 30 years ago that you're just always safe in the kingdom of God. And so what I hear you saying is once something like that is settled, then it's just trying to pay attention to how that's true and how it is that God actually loves us. You can start thinking of all the scriptures of God's attentiveness to us and then it becomes more of like you say kind of a how. I remember one of Dallas's great analogies, well great to me. He was talking about Jesus' word, the kingdom of God is at hand and Dallas would say, it's like the electrical socket in your wall. It's at hand, it's there. All you have to do is make some small arrangements in your life to plug into it. And those small arrangements are the kind of how I think that you're talking about. How can we be attentive? And sometimes that might mean crawling across the room because our spiritual legs are broken or going to the wall in tears because our heart is broken. So it doesn't disallow whatever condition we're in. The condition we're in maybe informs how it is that we arrange the affairs of our life, but we do so. I love that idea that we do that. out of a fundamental faith rather than a fundamental insecurity. Sarah Smith (39:46.031) Yeah, because otherwise it just, I've been in environments that have felt so fraught, you know, and just the, and that feeling of fraught carries into a culture of being risk averse. And so there is something about, yeah, weather and tears plugging in, you know, there's something, there's something that's a willingness to risk. Todd Hunter (39:51.662) Mmm. Todd Hunter (40:02.421) Alright, yes. Todd Hunter (40:10.112) Yeah, yeah. Todd Hunter (40:14.97) Mm. Yeah, I'm so glad you said that because risk being of risk averse is a killer of mission and a killer of creativity. It's a killer of the kind of mutual forgiveness we need to have amongst ourselves as professionals. Sorry, if you're listening, you're not a professional. But what I mean is like there's no such thing as really effective ministry that doesn't take risk, that doesn't take chances, that doesn't try new things. And we have to have a culture that says we fail together and we almost like fail with a smile on our face, like, hey, nice shot. I see why you tried that, way to go. Didn't work out the way we drew it up, but hey, way to go. So yeah, having that, well, putting it positively, an atmosphere that knows how to take risks joyfully and in confidence with God is super important, I think, especially to mission now, because there is no agreed upon way of, just do church this way, or hey, just do evangelism or discipleship this way. that kind of moment of formulaic ministry seems really gone. And like everybody's scrambling to wonder, what does it mean to be Christian in this moment? What does it mean to help people come to faith in this particular moment? And there's just no way we can do that without that childlike confidence you're articulating. Sarah Smith (41:30.797) Yeah. Well, and it goes back to our conversation around spiritual formation, right? It prevents it from becoming spiritual formation is actually about, you know, buffering me in some way. We're building more at comfort, right? In this, but, no, actually it's the spiritual formation that allows me to take risks and discomfort. Todd Hunter (41:35.214) Mm-hmm. Todd Hunter (41:41.174) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Todd Hunter (41:50.626) Yeah. Amen. All right. Wise words from Sarah Smith, the new rector of Church of the Cross in Austin. Somebody cue an applause track here for Sarah Smith. Thanks for being with us, Sarah. Sarah Smith (42:03.759) Thanks for having me, Todd.