Todd Hunter (00:02.063) Okay, Dwayne, you should see it somewhere in the middle of the screen. It says we're recording now. Duane (00:07.608) All right, yes. Todd Hunter (00:08.509) All right, here we go. Hey, see for so this is Todd Hunter. Glad to have you with us today. Today, my guest is Dwayne Grobman, who I'll let introduce himself to you a bit here in a moment. Dwayne, you might have heard when the episode two weeks ago that this podcast has a pretty broad audience. But today I want us to really focus on the leaders that listen and to help them understand change. But I think you'll agree with me that change is human. It's not just organizational. So probably anybody. listening today can learn from it. So okay, Dwayne, just to help people get to know you, I was thinking this morning that you and I have a long history together as friends and otherwise for about 15 years, I think 14, 15 years. But I was thinking along that same time, I think people should know about you. Now, what's the real deal? You have like partial season tickets to the angels like you and another family share them or something. I forget the story. Duane (01:04.981) My father and I share them and then we share them with two other friends. So, not many people can go to 81 games. Todd Hunter (01:09.389) Okay. I knew, I knew it was shared. what's that? Yeah, that's true. You'd have to be pretty darn committed. So I was thinking we share this together. So the last World Series 2002, the last time I can't believe this, the Angels had a winning record 2014 trout. You felt this pain more than me because I've been in Nashville. Trout's not played a full season in five years. We lost a tani to the Dodgers. I think something we share is sort of this earthly form of purgatory of being an Angels fan. Duane (01:46.848) It is an exercise in the practice of long suffer. Todd Hunter (01:52.317) So you don't go to angel games, you go to nurture the fruit of the spirit. Duane (01:59.128) Yeah, in my better moments. Todd Hunter (02:00.925) Anyway, all right, Dwayne, I would like people to get to know you a bit. You know, I guess we first met as you being a member of Holy Trinity and Costa Mesa, and then we became friends and you served on the vestry and served the church in various ways. But give people a little bit of your background before we met each other in like nine or 2009 or 10 or something at Holy Trinity. Duane (02:27.182) Yeah. So, and actually Todd and I, we, we didn't know each other. We grew up in neighboring towns. So we go back, uh, but then we didn't know each other at the time. Uh, but I give, um, I give leadership to, uh, a nonprofit called Tend, T-E-N-D. And, uh, the name has a threefold meaning. It is a metaphor for how do we cultivate growth. It's also an acronym for. Todd Hunter (02:33.648) We did, yes. Todd Hunter (02:53.853) Mm-hmm. Duane (02:56.046) taking experience in new directions, which I think has relevance to today's topic. And then it also comes from John 21, when Jesus, 10 sheep. And so we do five primary things. We do executive coaching, we do spiritual direction, we do consulting, and then we do qualitative research, particularly around the area of program evaluation. Todd Hunter (02:59.111) Mmm. Todd Hunter (03:02.737) Yeah. Todd Hunter (03:06.391) Okay, yeah, yeah Duane (03:24.492) When organizations, institutions launch typically leadership development programs or spiritual programs, we're often brought in as an outsider to kind of evaluate, particularly funders who are often funding at significant levels and want to have outside objective. And then lastly, we publish free monthly. Todd Hunter (03:31.773) Mm-hmm. Todd Hunter (03:44.465) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Duane (03:51.604) online magazine called Cultivari, which really seeks to support and encourage spiritual formation. Todd Hunter (03:54.556) Yeah, it's lovely. Todd Hunter (04:01.339) Yes, spell cultivari for our listeners. Duane (04:03.562) It's C-U-L-T-I-V-A-R-E and the address then is net at the end dot net. Todd Hunter (04:14.493) Yeah, yeah, it's really lovely. I would encourage everybody to check it out. So Dwayne, if I was sitting on an airplane or in an elevator or somebody or something, as somebody said, Dwayne Grobman, I mean, those are the kind of words I would use coach, mentor, spiritual director. And because we're friends and because we've had overlapping engagements, sometimes you're engaging with me. Sometimes you are helping us with leadership transitions at Holy Trinity. You've helped the diocese in many ways. So that's that's the way I would describe your work. And you've you've worn, you know, those those various hats around me numerous times. And that's that's why we wanted you on the podcast today to help us respond to the change that we're going through. So just to remind people who are listening and might not have heard the previous episode is that C4 says going through a change in that its founding bishop, me, Todd Hunter, is retiring next spring and we have had an election for somebody to replace me. And it's that specific transition that I, of course, am trying to help C4SO go through. And so what I wanted to do today, Dwayne, is to get you to kind of call on all of your experience and all those hats of coach, mentor, spiritual director, consultant, all those things. and help us process this. let's begin with I know you and I from previous conversations have an appreciation for William Bridges and especially his work, his book called Transitions. So I wonder if you could just if we could begin by you commenting on a quote from the last podcast where Bridges says, it isn't the changes that do us in, it's the transitions. And that's interesting because you would think changes and transitions are synonymous, right? But he makes a difference here saying that change is situational, it's external, something's happening. Transition, Bridges says, is the psychological process people, excuse me, the psychological process that we go through to come to terms with the new situation. Bridges wants to say that change is external, transition is internal. What do you think about that? Duane (06:32.766) Well, I previously read several of his books and I'm a big fan of William Bridges and I use his work quite a bit, particularly in coaching realm, but also in consulting. So I really affirm his insights and perspective. I do think it's really helpful to help individuals and organizations understand the difference between change. Todd Hunter (06:38.726) Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Duane (06:59.502) and transitions. I'm thinking with a quote on change that I learned when I was graduating from high school, which in and of itself is a unique time of transitions from high school to college. But it in my high school yearbook and I thought, well, this is kind of profound for a high school yearbook, but here at Cleats said there's nothing permanent except change. Todd Hunter (07:12.325) Yeah, very much, Todd Hunter (07:25.572) yeah. Duane (07:26.554) And that really got me thinking even as a young 18 year old. But thankfully transition is not permanent. It's a process and it's a period of time. And I think you're really wise to begin to help C4SO have some language to work with and a concept besides, well, it's a process. Todd Hunter (07:52.999) Yeah. Duane (07:53.772) because there is a lot that takes place in this transition. I did have the opportunity to listen to last week's and I thought you did a great job in sort of outlining how bridges defines transition as there's an ending, there's the neutral zone, and there's a beginning. And I just find that really helpful language because Todd Hunter (08:12.082) Yeah. Yeah. Duane (08:22.83) Transition can create for a whole host of people a lot of anxiety and dis-ease. And I know you're trying to help the diocese lessen, eliminate any unnecessary anxiety so that people can approach it as trusting the unfolding plans of God. Todd Hunter (08:29.735) Yeah. Todd Hunter (08:50.053) Yeah. So let's role play here a little bit, Dwayne. I hadn't thought of this, but so I'm sitting with you and you've got one of your hats on a director, mentor, you know, coach. And I say something like maybe I'm working at a university, maybe I'm working on a church staff. And I say, gosh, we're getting a new dean. So something's external. We're getting a new dean. Like that's happening or. gosh, we're getting a new executive pastor and I work for him. And someone says, it's not so much, or I say to you, it's not so much, Dwayne, that I mind that transition, but man, I got all kinds of feelings about it. What do I do about that? Why do my thoughts seem so separated from my feelings about something that seems perfectly rational? Duane (09:46.198) Well, it is really common. It's a super common. I will say I'm not going to role play. I'll just respond. You don't know me in this context because I'm known for putting play and role play. And I think you want a more serious response. Todd Hunter (09:55.875) Okay, that's fine. Todd Hunter (10:02.307) okay. Duane (10:04.762) but, I think helping people recognize that there is, and that again, bridges is really helpful on that, that they're pay attention to what's going on inside and recognize that that, is, you think is, has external ramifications and implications. It also has internal and Much of what Bridges talks about, and I think it's really accurate is you have to begin to ask yourself, what am I, what am I holding tightly to? And what might, what might God be inviting me to kind of loosen my grip on and perhaps let go of? because the reality is, the chain change does involve loss. All change involves loss. Todd Hunter (10:41.92) Mmm. Yeah. Todd Hunter (10:48.295) Yeah. Yeah. Todd Hunter (10:58.126) Mm-hmm. Duane (11:01.342) And so therefore it involves grief. can involve lament. And it can stir some of our anxieties and fear. So, but I usually find that helping people identify what are they holding so tightly. Todd Hunter (11:12.273) Yeah. Todd Hunter (11:21.969) Yeah. I'm really glad you brought that up. I don't think I brought that up the last episode, the issue of loss or if I did, I'm not remembering, but that's super helpful because as you say, loss has all these other emotions that go here to it. Yeah. Well, sorry, go ahead. Duane (11:23.574) Is it helpful? Duane (11:36.918) It does. Yeah. People want, people tend to want change. I mean, we all want change in our, in our lives in particular, particular areas. But what we usually don't want is loss. And unfortunately change comes with loss. Todd Hunter (11:45.212) Mm. Todd Hunter (12:00.091) Yeah, I'm kind of remembering. I haven't read Bridges in a lot of years, but I think I'm remembering him saying marriage is the loss of singleness or high school graduation is the loss of those high school years and that he was making your point that there's always some loss involved. And that's what triggers some of these feelings. Duane (12:20.462) Yes. I mean, I think the good thing for those involved in C4SO and your broader listeners is that we're actually all, of us, pretty experienced transitioners because you just cited marriage. I talked about high school to college, the birth of a child, know, starting a new church or attending a new church, a job change, the loss of a loved one. And you mentioned in the last Todd Hunter (12:34.599) Mm-hmm. Todd Hunter (12:49.425) Yeah. Duane (12:50.018) podcast retirement. All of those are forms of transitions. And so it's, we're already, we're already experienced at it. It's just when a new change occurs and we're engaged in a new transition, it does stir us afresh. Todd Hunter (12:51.974) Yeah. Todd Hunter (12:56.111) Yeah, yeah, that's helpful. I mean, sorry, hopeful. Mm-hmm. Todd Hunter (13:08.839) Yeah. Yeah. OK, Dwayne, so at this point in my life, if somebody were to ask me about my kind of primary spiritual focus or primary spiritual practice, I would say I would want to start talking about practicing the presence and Brother Lawrence and Deca sod and that that's just my go to thing. mean, there's lots of other things like prayer and scripture and worship and all that. But if I just think of what what literally gets me through a day connected to myself, connected to the people and events in my life, connected with God. It's scrupulously for many years now trying to practice the presence. And so I wanna bring that to this conversation to help people, as you've already alluded to, pay attention to their own soul in this as a normal thing, or their own thoughts and feelings, emotions, that sort of thing, just learning to be present to it. And you've already mentioned one of them is just being present to why am I having a hard time letting go? What's the loss I fear? And instead of judging ourselves or judging each other or being hard on ourselves to just literally sit with the Lord and wonder what's the attachment here? So I'm glad you brought that one up. Here's another one I'd like you to react to that I think I hear a lot. And that is when people are trying to When we're in this liminal moment where we can feel the we can feel that a loss is coming. And in this case, just to keep it real, Todd's going to be gone next May. But this new era isn't here. So we're in this liminal moment in which we wonder like, well, who will I be in this new era or who will we be who will see for us? So be in this new era after the change. It feels to me like that's a big thing that a lot of people. Todd Hunter (15:06.693) have going on in their conscious or subconscious mind. Duane (15:10.486) I agree. It's confronting the unknown. It's confronting the unknown. But you know, one of the things that I like that you reminded people last month was the quote of Dallas Willard that it's always in the kingdom. But Todd Hunter (15:14.417) Hmm. Todd Hunter (15:26.267) Yeah. Yeah. Duane (15:33.486) People are used to a particular leader in this case. They're used to a particular way of things sort of operating and unfolding, a way of communication. But they recognize right now that that at some point is gonna change. And the new leadership is gonna have their own forms of communication and ways of being. Todd Hunter (15:46.845) Mm-hmm. Todd Hunter (15:55.727) Mm-hmm. Duane (16:03.658) And so there's that fear of what that unknown is. But again, one reason I brought up all these that were experienced transitioners is through a lot of transitions already. And you've made it, made it through. in many ways, transition can ask, actually is the necessary process to lead us to where God wants us. Todd Hunter (16:07.548) Yeah. Todd Hunter (16:12.953) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Todd Hunter (16:28.882) Hmm. Duane (16:31.914) And I find sometimes it's, helpful to kind of, think transition is the right word, but sometimes it's helpful to kind of reframe it as sort of, well, I like this quote about, traveling that a trip becomes a journey after you've lost your luggage. So, and in many ways, this transition is sort of a surrounding of certain luggage you may have from your past. Todd Hunter (16:42.641) Mm-hmm. Todd Hunter (16:54.243) Hmm. Todd Hunter (17:00.079) Yeah, or where'd my luggage go? Who took my luggage? Yeah. Yeah. What power in executive suite or something took my luggage? Yeah. Duane (17:09.048) So, but if you can reframe it sort of as a journey or even an adventure in learning, cause that's, that's the other thing is with the loss, with the change, there is the requirement of learning. I have, I have to get in the learning. Todd Hunter (17:21.821) Mmm, yeah. Yeah, yeah, I love you use that word particular that I'm I'm a particular person. I'm a particular kind of leader. And I want to say that that particularness, though, does not mean perfect. And the people around me were finding their particularness within mine. But a new particularness is going to, you know, be revealed in the next year or so. And you're giving me hope that we'll all find our particularity, including me, around a new leader and that that's just a part of the process. Duane (18:03.768) Yes. One of the things that I like that you said in the last episode, the last podcast was that you are the foundational leader. You found it, but that it's time and God is leading to what the next chapter is. And again, that shouldn't be viewed as something that's fearful or scary, but it should be viewed as something Todd Hunter (18:15.611) Yeah. Todd Hunter (18:23.911) Hmm. Todd Hunter (18:30.205) Mm-hmm. Duane (18:33.358) that God is inviting us to and that he has, he has good, good things planned for us. And it may be even be that, um, you know, one of the things I liked also that you brought in that. Bridges talks about that the neutral zone, which can, it often gets people sort of stuck cause there's the vulnerability of going back to the way things were. I want to do that. So that's one. Todd Hunter (18:39.645) Yeah. Duane (19:02.478) The other vulnerability is to, out of the sort of uncomfortableness or dis-ease, kind of rush forward and just force your venue. And that doesn't work well. And we live in a culture that's very immediacy. So things take sort of longer. They don't unfold always so positive. Todd Hunter (19:12.1) Yes, yeah. Todd Hunter (19:16.949) Hmm. Todd Hunter (19:21.883) Yeah. Todd Hunter (19:30.18) Yeah. Duane (19:30.68) They longer have a rich, more of a richness to it. and, so it's going to take some time, but to trust it. But it may be that going from the founding stage, it may be that God wants to do something that's renewing, and something new and see for us. So, and again, bridges, since you sort of directed, you know, brought it up in your last one, I, there's a quote of his that I liked where he says renewal. Todd Hunter (19:34.097) Yeah. Todd Hunter (19:45.926) Yeah. Duane (20:00.158) possible only by going into and through transition. And transition always has at least as much to do with what we let go of as it is as with whatever we end up gaining in its place. Todd Hunter (20:06.588) Yeah. Todd Hunter (20:20.029) Hmm. Duane (20:21.644) So it's this beautiful twofold. Todd Hunter (20:23.291) Yeah, yeah Yeah, it makes me want to say if if you're really tracking with these last couple episodes And and you are a leader and you are especially if you're leading change right now or going through it You should just get bridges his book transitions because dwayne you just gave me a flashback I mean, I forget when the book came out, but I feel like it's been a couple decades since I was working with it I remember creating talks out of it and stuff But you just gave me a flashback to I remember reading that section of the neutral zone, because I'm the kind of person who would want to rush forward because I'm creative and I like new things. But it's not just this virtuous. I'm creative and like new things. I also don't like the unsettled feelings associated with liminality. So my personality would be let's rush ahead. And to your point, that's in an organization is as harmful as trying to hold on to the old. Duane (21:15.374) Correct. And there may be something new that's there. I often with coaching clients will use the example of I am a music lover, so I have great appreciation for the composer John Williams, who most people may or may not recall that in 1980 he became the composer of the Boston Pops after Arthur Fiedler, who was this longtime leader there. And I think Todd Hunter (21:29.042) Mm, yeah. Duane (21:44.354) John Williams is an extraordinary human being and composer and gift. Todd Hunter (21:48.221) Yeah, I just watched the documentary about him amazing. I had no idea how great he was Duane (21:53.506) But he took actually a long chunk of time before he imposed a change he wanted, which was to have the Boston Pops play movie music, which ended up, and they basically, he basically had a mutiny on his hands. And he actually resigned because he felt so strongly about it. And then the board had to step in and they brought about the change and Todd Hunter (22:05.91) Okay. Todd Hunter (22:12.583) Hmm. Duane (22:24.14) I don't know about you, but one of my favorite things is to go to the Hollywood Bowl and John Williams night where they do a whole mix of his movies. It is amazing. they basically, the orchestra had to change. They had this new leader because he was introducing new music and music that actually the audience greatly appreciated and had strong connection for. Todd Hunter (22:28.86) Yeah. Todd Hunter (22:32.818) I've never done that, but it sounds amazing. Todd Hunter (22:39.879) Yeah. Todd Hunter (22:44.774) Yeah. Todd Hunter (22:49.221) Yeah. Yeah, super helpful. OK, we have two other main points I want to get to, but one other one, Dwayne, on this issue of paying attention to our own soul. You know, I've been leading almost 50 years, I've been watching leaders for 50 years, and I know one of the patterns I see during these liminal moments is a temptation to controlling behaviors, either a leader trying to control people or the environment or the people for whom a change is. something that's coming at them. They have a different set of controlling sort of impulses that might come up. But let's focus here on what would you say to a leader who their kind of first emotional reaction to this is to become controlling? there's, you know, in change, everything's changing, duh, in air quotes. And that pushes a button in me that I want to be in control. What do you think? Duane (23:47.566) Again, I go back to that question, what are you holding so tightly to? What are you holding so tightly to? There's something there that I'm holding tightly that I'm afraid of letting go or I'm afraid if I don't hold it, things are actually gonna get out of control. So again, what am I holding so tightly? Sometimes that's a value, a perspective. Todd Hunter (23:52.752) Okay. Mm. Todd Hunter (24:16.093) Hmm. Duane (24:17.046) Sometimes it's a fear because of their past histories and certain changes and transitions haven't gone so positively. So I think what am I holding so tightly? Todd Hunter (24:25.467) Yeah. Todd Hunter (24:29.565) Okay, that's a great place to start. Okay, so let's shift gears here, Dwayne, to now I'm picturing a rector or somebody leading anything. It could be youth or whatever, who a change is happening in an organization. And so a part of what they have to do is not only deal with their own inner life, but to help others with their inner life and the relational dynamics that get produced when you have a change of leadership. So I'm thinking of... somebody who's trying to lead a team of Estria Perry's council, a board or whatever. Give us a couple of quick thoughts about noticing the relational and inner dynamics of the people we're trying to lead, not just our own. Duane (25:12.398) Well, I always think that listening is always the first activity you need to exercise. you know, we listen with our eyes and our ears, our heart. Todd Hunter (25:18.972) Hmm. Todd Hunter (25:27.163) Mm-hmm. Duane (25:28.494) And so listening to your people, I'm, I'm recalling when you were sort of in the midst of transitioning from Holy Trinity to, um, to see for us, see for so on and being the bishop full time. I don't know if you recall, but we held listening groups and those, those were really valuable to listen to people. Um, and so I think listening is one of the first it's it's sort of. Todd Hunter (25:39.325) Mm-hmm. Todd Hunter (25:56.507) Hmm. Duane (25:57.442) may be discounted, but it's super important. need to listen, because you're going to be listening to where people are at emotionally and spiritually. And again, what they may be holding onto tightly. Todd Hunter (26:04.721) Yeah. Todd Hunter (26:10.705) Yeah. Good. All right. So I don't really love this language of stakeholder, but for lack of better language or, I don't know, key, key issues in the process. So we've talked about a leader being attentive to their own soul, non-judgmentally, no guilt, no shame, just being attentive. We've talked a bit here about trying to help others. And then I thought, Dwayne, there's the change sought like If we're in, we were in A and we're in this liminal moment where we're not quite in B, whatever B is, is a good. so that we can't merely be attentive to our own souls and we can't merely be attentive to caring for the souls of the people we care about in leadership and in the congregation. But there's also the change and it needs attention too, right? Like we're actually trying to do something that we assume is good and yeah how did like sorry eric let me try this again So how do we hold that intention? Like that feels sort of material, again, for lack of a better word, where the other things we've been talking about are, you know, kind of soul and emotion and mind, heart, will. But we do have to hold on to, we're trying to build this building or, we need somebody new to run the children's ministry and we have to hire this person. So there's that thing as well that feels concrete. So how do you coach people into holding on to that within all these other inner and relational dynamics? Duane (27:56.366) So, and this does connect to the listening, but one of the things that I usually do is help people identify the specifics that they're holding onto. And that could be in the material realm, the buildings, the facilities, certain programs, but then prioritize them and dig deeper into why you hold those in such high regard. Todd Hunter (28:05.575) Mm-hmm. Duane (28:25.6) or you see them as so instrumental for the future of the church. Todd Hunter (28:25.757) Mm. Todd Hunter (28:31.186) Yeah. Duane (28:33.07) Um, so, and again, I'm recalling some conversations we had when I was a Holy Trinity, because one of the things that I gave voice to is at least at that stage in the life of that church, uh, one of the things that we, we just, we voiced is that we were not going to program our way to our future, but it was going to be done through relationships. Todd Hunter (28:40.847) Mm-hmm. Todd Hunter (28:55.027) Mmm, yeah. Duane (29:00.502) And so again, if you kind of prioritize what is most important, things tend to sort of, and get people to buy into that and understand those priorities, then I think things unfold in a more healthy, natural way. Todd Hunter (29:12.154) Mm-hmm. Hmm. Todd Hunter (29:18.941) Now, so if we were having a session together and you were coaching me, I would be saying back to you, oh, Dwayne, I think I hear you saying that the way to pay attention to, from the back of a better word, the material thing is to pay attention to myself and others and that that's not opposite to pursuing that. It's actually the way to pursue it. Duane (29:44.046) Correct. Todd Hunter (29:46.269) This is why you I have always gotten along. I can hear you. All right. So, Dwayne, you might remember the last couple of thoughts on my earlier podcast was suggesting the kind of self-examination that we've been talking about and trying to be present to our truest thoughts and feelings and just processing them as they come up with the Lord and with the help of others as we're kind of modeling here. So I'm wondering sort of just sort of rapid fire if you could just comment on these tips that I suggested at the last episode. So. Just this notion of being especially attentive in errors of change. Duane (30:28.462) I totally agree with your whole list, but. Todd Hunter (30:33.181) Okay. Duane (30:35.438) I would say yes, be aware and attentive to that there are areas of change. And I go back to what I said earlier, we actually are all pretty experienced transitioners. We've experienced a lot of change in our life. Todd Hunter (30:49.681) Well, actually hear you saying something else that's really helpful, Dwayne. Now I do feel like we are in a coaching session that being attentive to myself is what helps me be attentive to others. And it gives it kind of a practical undertone or overtone rather than one that's guilt and shame, good or bad, right or wrong. I'm just being attentive. And then that that allows me to be attentive to others because I'm settled. my own soul. I'm not going into these hard conversations as an anxious presence to get to one of our other fame or favorite authors, but that's and that will tackle Friedman another day. All right, so so I've basically already said it, but again, say whatever you want about the importance of being non-judgmental of ourself or others in these processes. Duane (31:27.928) Yes. Yeah Duane (31:41.196) No, I really affirm that. Yeah, as we know, judgment tends to shut people down. In ourselves and so we need to be non-judgmental so we can open people up and understand what they're thinking, feeling, experiencing. Because again, if you go back to all change involves loss, they may be at a very early stage in their own sort of lamenting and grief, where you may be at a different stage in your grieving process. Todd Hunter (31:48.126) Including ourselves, right? Yeah. Todd Hunter (32:03.611) Mm-hmm. Todd Hunter (32:10.567) Yeah. Duane (32:14.158) of that which you've lost. Todd Hunter (32:17.469) Yeah. All right. Well, I guess we got to do a little Friedman because the next tip I gave was about being non-anxious. what so, know, anybody who's around me has heard those words for for 15 years. But for other people, it's like, well, what does that even mean? So what do we mean when we suggest that a leader, as we're leading people through these liminal processes, should be non-anxious? What is that? Like, what's that look like? Duane (32:44.11) Well, some reason all of sudden the British phrase, you know, keep calm and carry on. You know, when you the reality is, is when you were when you're were when you're with an anxious person, and that can be an anxious leader, it just has this ability to kind of be contagious. And it, it creates that anxiety and those that are in relationship to it. Todd Hunter (32:51.693) Okay, yeah. Todd Hunter (33:09.617) Hmm. Todd Hunter (33:14.855) Mm-hmm. Duane (33:15.562) And so it's really helpful for the leader to remain calm, to be attuned to his or her own interior life. And from that, do the work that enables you to think clearly and to trust. much of the work I do is helping people actually trust their instincts, trust their feelings, trust their gut. And then trust first and foremost, trust God that he's in control of this. so therefore you don't have to again, hold things tightly or try to control things. Um, cause often the holding things tightly is an, an example or an expression of anxiety. Todd Hunter (33:49.639) Yeah. Yeah. Todd Hunter (33:58.897) Mm-hmm. Todd Hunter (34:07.773) Yeah, yeah. Yeah, again, I just, if we were having a session, I would be saying back to you, what that says to me is noticing my own formation in Christ, finding a settledness and a security, a kind of a firm stance in Him. taking on as you said earlier the notion that we're always safe in the kingdom of God, that's what allows me to be non-anxious. Like I can't gruntingly be non-anxious. Something like non-anxious is an overflow of a certain sort of heart and then I hear you saying if I can show up to life that way and if I can show up to leadership that way that that also overflows. It's not just anxiousness that overflows but non-anxiety can overflow as well. Am I hearing you? Duane (34:56.92) Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. That's why I think your list is excellent. You know, practicing God's presence and the word I would, I would keep coming back to his trust. And for me, for me, a quote that really was helpful to me in various transitions, because I do think, am I trusting God? Am I trusting this situation? I'm be trusting myself, those that Todd Hunter (35:10.225) Hmm. Yeah. Todd Hunter (35:19.493) Mm-hmm. Duane (35:26.036) I am journeying with. And I, you know, another book that I found helpful for transitions is Brennan Manning's book, Rufus Trust. And so he has a great definition of trust where he says the way of trust is a movement into obscurity, into the undefined, into ambiguity, not into some predetermined, clearly delineated plan for the future. Todd Hunter (35:37.147) yes. Duane (35:57.026) The next step discloses itself only out of a discernment of God acting in the desert of the present moment. The reality of naked trust is the life of a pilgrim who leaves what is nailed down, obvious and secure, and walks into the unknown without any rational explanation to justify the decision or guarantee the future. Why? And this is the key phrase because God has signaled the movement and offered it his presence and his promise. To me, that's a great definition of that. We have this, we have God's presence and promise to lead. Todd Hunter (36:33.169) Hmm. Yeah. Yeah, thank you, Dwayne. Todd Hunter (36:42.045) Yeah, thank you. We'll put that quote in the show notes. Eric, let's make a note to find that quote with the reference and put it in the show notes. All right, Dwayne, we're going to skip to the end just for the sake of time. So Dwayne, if I'm remembering right. You and I both have some affection for John O'Donoghue, the poet. In fact, you might have been one of the people who helped introduce me to him. And gosh, I lose track of time, but maybe two or three years ago, my spiritual director gave me his poem for a new beginning. And I thought of it just because it maps on a little bit, you know, to Bridges's work. And I wonder, would you just read this stanza? Over us today as we close as a way as like a blessing to see for so as a or as an organization to each of our clergy and all of our lay leaders and congregations You might want to say something about it if it's been a meaningful poem to you. I've been sitting with it for years Not knowing that this particular day would come but it's been meaningful to me for a long time Are you have you been aware of it? Yeah Duane (37:54.894) I yeah, I greatly appreciate the work of John O'Donoghue. Todd Hunter (38:01.425) Yeah. Could you read this over? This is kind of a final blessing. Duane (38:05.91) my privilege. Thank you, Todd. For a New Beginning by John O'Donoghue. Though your destination is not yet clear, you can trust the promise of this opening. Unfurl yourself into the grace of beginning. Awaken your spirit to adventure. Hold nothing back. Learn to find ease in risk. Soon you will home in a new rhythm. Todd Hunter (38:47.239) Thank you, Dwayne. Hey, Dwayne, say that next to last sentence one more time. Eric can edit it. Duane (38:54.326) Hold back nothing. Todd Hunter (38:56.294) Nope, try it again. Duane (38:59.438) That line or a different line? Todd Hunter (39:00.741) No, you got those words mixed up. said, hold back nothing. It's okay, we can edit. It's the beauty of editing. Duane (39:09.624) Yeah, that's good catch. Alright. Hold nothing back. Learn to find ease in risk. Soon you will home in a new rhythm. Todd Hunter (39:21.627) Yeah, great. All right. Thank you, Dwayne. You've been a great guest and I'm glad I finally get to introduce somebody who's very important and treasured in my life like you are to a bunch of my friends. So thanks for being here. Duane (39:35.48) Thank you, it's been a privilege. Todd Hunter (39:38.864) Eric.