Jeff (00:00.395) All right, great. Todd Hunter (00:04.418) All right, Jeff Bailey, great to have you on the C4SO podcast. Jeff (00:07.87) Yeah, great to be here. Todd Hunter (00:09.56) So I'm wondering how you're feeling, because you're already a little bit of a legend in your own time in certain C4SO circles. Lots of people have gotten to know you through the election process. And you've had to answer a million questions and all that. But not on that angle, but just from another angle, because we have a wider audience here than just C4SO people. So just introduce yourself a bit to our audience. Jeff (00:32.65) Yeah, no, this feels like a familiar spot here sitting in front of a microphone and a camera for the however long it was three months through the search selection process So yeah, I feel right at home here But yeah, I'm calling in from Washington DC where I live with my wife and three kids. We just graduated our Last and final child yesterday. She walked through graduation ceremony. So we are now officially empty nesters with three kids in college. I'm not sure how we Todd Hunter (00:39.862) that's right. Yeah. Todd Hunter (00:56.212) Wow. Jeff (01:01.076) We should have thought through the timing of that maybe a little bit more. But yeah, it's just been such a joy to. Todd Hunter (01:01.826) Yeah. Or hope to have had one child that was a bricklayer or something or yeah. Yeah, that's great. So great to have you. Well, Jeff, I wanted you on today because, as you know, you and I and C4SO are all going through a lot of change. And we've been working a bit the last couple of episodes with William Bridges work on transitions and the inner aspects that are associated with change. Jeff (01:08.816) Exactly, that's right. Yeah, I don't set a mold of college. Yeah. Todd Hunter (01:31.649) And so a couple of episodes ago, I did a bit of explanation on Bridges's work. And then last episode, I unpacked the organizational aspects of transitions with my coach, Duane Grobman. And then today I want us to dig in a little more personally for our listeners who don't lead churches or don't lead, you know, religious nonprofits. They just are our listeners. They're people who have to go through change. And I think I'll give C4SO a bit of a way to get to know you as well. And that is to talk about how you've been going through this transition the last 10 months, because we started talking about the possibility of this when I announced last June. So maybe it's going on 12 months now that this is at least been on your radar screen one way or the other. So just before we get there, for the sake of our listeners who might have missed one or one or both of the last sessions, the main point that Bridges makes that I think is so helpful is that there's a difference between change and transition. Jeff (02:09.542) Mm-mm. Todd Hunter (02:26.994) Bridges says it isn't the changes that do us in, it's the transitions. Change, he said, is situational. It's external. It's something that's happening like my retirement or a new bishop called Jeff, right? These are just external things that are happening. But Bridges says transition is the psychological process people go through to come to terms with the new situation. So Bridges, as you know, names these three stages in the process and ending. And then a neutral zone and a new beginning. And I first read this when it first came out, and I can't remember. It seems like it's decades ago. And I just remember that was so paradigm shifting that, well, no, wait a minute. This is just a new beginning. And the idea that no, actually you yourself and you're leading an organization through an ending and then a neutral zone. What the hell? Nobody had ever heard of a neutral zone. Everybody knew the word ending or new beginning, but nobody had heard of this bridges idea of neutral zone. Jeff (03:19.861) Yeah. Todd Hunter (03:23.446) And so he makes this point, the transitions begin with an ending that we first must let go of the old thing and that we need to let go of the past before we can embrace the new era. So what I'm wondering is, like as you've gone through this, if we take bridges at his word, what have you found yourself needing to let go of? Jeff (03:45.486) Yeah, it's a great question and I do love Bridges work. It's incredibly helpful on so many different levels. I think in some ways this letting go process probably started for me actually about a year ago, even a few months before you and I started talking about the possibility of different things and before this came onto my radar with C4SO, I remember, gosh, it was last spring, so over a year ago, sitting with a group of Anglican urban church planters. We would get together once a year for a retreat and talking about where we were at with things and just giving updates on our lives. And I remember stating to that group, and I think it was the first group of people I had actually said this to, I said, I feel like change is coming. I feel like what I've been doing for the last four plus years is coming to an end, but I don't know what's next. And it was a strange place to be. It was a place I hadn't really experienced before of just knowing in my guts that what I'd been doing was coming to an end, but I didn't know what was next. I knew in part that the work that I'd been doing in Diocese of Christ our hope, a lot of what I'd wanted to accomplish had been accomplished, not completely, but... Todd Hunter (04:42.915) Yeah. Jeff (05:03.131) The things that I'd had in mind, we had gotten there, but it was more than that. was something that I needed to sit with and not try to plan the next thing, but to simply name the fact that I felt like something was coming to an end and I wasn't trying to then scramble to figure out what was next, but the naming of it actually felt like an act of faith and to be able to simply sit there with that Todd Hunter (05:06.158) Mm-hmm. Todd Hunter (05:17.432) Yeah. Todd Hunter (05:29.752) Yeah. Jeff (05:33.352) uncertainty and that that was actually an important step. Todd Hunter (05:35.811) Hmm. Yeah. So how have you processed that uncertainty, that sense of an ending is coming, but there's not even a new beginning in view yet. You just have this these first senses of an ending. Help our listeners understand, like, what are the spiritual disciplines or practices that you've employed to stay present to that ending with? not even a no beginning in mind, so no neutral zone, just these first sort of gut instincts. I don't know, you might want to talk about it in Ignatian terms of consolation or desolation or whatever comes to your mind. Like, how have you spiritually kept yourself grounded in those uncertain times? Jeff (06:19.633) Yeah, yeah, I think the, yeah, it's good, actually. It's helpful you mentioning the categories of Ignatian, consolation, or desolation. I think I experienced it as a kind of desolation, not devastating, but there's this sense of loss where you feel like something's coming to an end. I felt like what was happening in Christ Our Hope was Todd Hunter (06:36.003) Yeah. Jeff (06:48.229) was coming to a natural end. And at the same time, I was feeling this in other areas of my life as well. So I just mentioned we sent our final, our youngest child through high school graduation a year ago. I was staring at the fact that she was gonna be a high school senior and we were about to become empty nesters. And I was actually feeling the loss of that as well, that I was moving out of a season of family life as well. And interestingly, it wasn't just... Todd Hunter (07:04.973) Yeah. Todd Hunter (07:09.228) Yeah, yeah, that's a lot, right? Jeff (07:16.293) the change in family life that I knew was coming. It also was representative to me of a certain season of life. Like, I'm about to become a person who doesn't have kids at home anymore, or they might be home in the future, you know, having kids in school. And in my mind, I associated that with a certain kind of age. Like, I'm in an era where I have kids at home in school, and I'm about to move into a new era of empty nesters, which for me was older. Todd Hunter (07:28.866) Yeah. Right. Jeff (07:44.976) You know, so I found myself navigating complex feelings about aging at the same time as this was happening as well. So I think what, you know, in terms of the spiritual practices, I remember once hearing, I don't know if it was a therapist or a coach or somebody saying that the things that trip people up and keep them from moving on is a failure to grieve properly, to actually be attentive to loss and to lean into that and to begin to Todd Hunter (07:49.494) Yes, sure. Todd Hunter (08:08.726) Yeah. Yes. Jeff (08:14.874) to name that. And so, you know, I'm an Enneagram three. I'm always, I'm instinctively thinking about what's next. It's very hard. It's actually hard to sit in the present. I don't want to look at the past. And if there's negative feelings associated with it, I really don't want to look at it. I want to think positive and look forward. And so I think for me, the spiritual practice was, especially when I was journaling in the morning during my prayer time. Todd Hunter (08:24.974) Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Jeff (08:43.088) to begin to be more attentive to my internal state and to begin to name those feelings and experiences even if or especially if they were negative or if there was sadness or grief attached to it. So I think it was a season of desolation, but it also felt like a kind of freeing season where I was beginning to learn to be okay with that, to name that and to know that this is part of Todd Hunter (08:55.757) Yeah. Right. Todd Hunter (09:09.26) Yeah. Jeff (09:12.741) healthy growth and maturity is to notice and name those things and to sit with it and to be with it. Todd Hunter (09:18.316) Yeah, I sometimes joke that Eugene Peterson invented the words alert or noticing. I feel like I learned those two words from him or I don't know now and or Ignatian. I feel like those words did not come into the English vocabulary anywhere except for through Christian spirituality. But that is so important and so core, as you know, because, as you said, you happen to discover some some grief. Other people other people might notice uncertainty or anxiety or fear or worry or Jeff (09:26.149) Hmm. Yeah. Jeff (09:36.218) Yeah. Todd Hunter (09:48.163) you know, who will I be in this new situation or whatever. So I just want to underscore what Jeff is saying here that a major part of an ending is to just notice without judgment what's real and sit with the spirit and the spirit's not gonna judge you about it. Whatever it is, is real and to find a way to sit with it. Jeff mentioned, you know, journaling in his prayer time. Others might think of silence or solitude. Others might think of worship. Any of the spiritual practices. Jeff (10:00.841) Mm. Todd Hunter (10:17.722) can be helpful once one has noticed where they really are. So sort of having a diagnosis, so to speak, before we try to put some some sort of prescription on it. So, yeah, thanks, Jeff. That's really helpful. All right. So, sir, no, go ahead, please. Jeff (10:22.821) Yeah, yeah. Well, I think just, you know, as you're saying that, Todd, too, I think, you know, the plus side of that is you're sitting with it, not in order to fix it, not in order to simply move on with it. But I think the gift that came out of that is in naming those things. I also noticed Todd Hunter (10:42.604) Right. Jeff (10:51.491) than a deepening sense of dependence on the Lord in that space. Because once you name that, it gives you permission to say, can't control this, I can't control these outcomes, whether it's with family or even in ministry, when a season of ministry comes to an end, you look back and you inevitably feel some regrets about things you could have done better or done differently or would have done in addition if you'd had bandwidth for it. And so to be able to look back at that and to name that, it actually deepens a sense of Todd Hunter (10:54.442) Mm, yeah. Todd Hunter (11:01.794) Mm-hmm. Todd Hunter (11:14.862) Mm-hmm. Jeff (11:21.188) I've got to give all this to the Lord and trust these outcomes, these people, these situations to things that He can do things that I can't. Todd Hunter (11:34.701) Yeah, you know, major point of Bridges is that if we rush through these processes, either the ending or the neutral zone and don't sit with those ending sorts of feelings that you're describing, Jeff, I think it was on the episode with Dwayne, although it might have been a private conversation with me and Dwayne, I can't remember, but my temperament. would be to not cling to the past. Like some people, that's their thing of, my gosh, I just can't let go of these relationships or this job description I loved or this company or this church or whatever. And then other people with different temperaments are like just rushing on to the next thing. And that would be my tendency. But if I rush in that way and don't do what you're saying, we actually bring a less than idealized version of ourself. Jeff (12:12.707) Yeah. That's right. Todd Hunter (12:23.072) into the new thing and we actually it's not helpful. Jeff (12:26.922) Absolutely. Yeah, I think that's completely true. Todd Hunter (12:31.16) All right, so let's think back again to the first episode where we said that this progression from an ending to the neutral zone and to a new beginning, it's really real and it's challenging. And it's a process to disengage from what's been known and then to find comfort in the new and learn to embrace it. And what I want to say here is what I've learned over decades and decades of leading organizations is that we all do this in different ways and at different paces. And I just wanna say, I think I said on the first episode, it's just so important that we're kind and gracious to each other and our colleagues as we're all going through this. So, all right, so let's get back to Bridges. So Bridges says that before you can get to a new beginning, we pass through the ending that Jeff and I have been talking about, and then through a second phase, a neutral zone. And this is classic liminality. If you're not familiar with that term liminal, it just means. You're not in an old phase, but you're not in a new phase. You're in this in-between space where the old is gone or going and the new has not yet appeared. I often think of, think of stepping from your bedroom into the hallway. So your right foot's in your bedroom, your left foot's up in the air, hasn't quite hit the hallway yet. That's classic liminality. You're in between two spaces. And this normally produces a mix of anxiety, sometimes confusion. Jeff (13:31.427) I'm over the whole thing again. And see if it's not going to appear. I often think of stepping from the bedroom into the hall, so you're right in front of your bedroom. You're left in front of your room. It has a lot of interest in the hall, but again, that's a lot of interest in hall. And I way to say it. And this is all going to be pretty interesting. And I think that's a it. But that's not going to case in the middle of the day. It's going to be much more fascinating. Todd Hunter (13:55.033) But sometimes, and like this would be true for someone like me, it can spark massive creativity. And then that creativity is the sparkly new thing, right? And so then I wanna rush to that creative new thought. So I'm wondering, Jeff, with the election process passed, of you being elected bishop, and we have consent coming up, and as we're recording this in about a week? Jeff (14:01.599) Mm-hmm Todd Hunter (14:23.374) and then consecration coming up, at the end of September. Well, Jeff, you're in a liminal phase. Like, how's this feeling to you? Jeff (14:31.044) Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, it's a great question. You know, in some respects, the liminal phase has been going on for a while. The search process itself was a real exercise in liminality. It went on for, I think in an official way, eight months. There's the whole, you know, behind the scenes process, and then there's the public piece of that. So it was, you know, eight months of real liminality of being invited into something that you want to be Todd Hunter (14:45.294) Mmm. Yeah, right. Right. Todd Hunter (14:55.148) Yeah. Jeff (15:01.122) present to, but you have no idea what the outcome is going to be. So how to be present to that without trying to control anything. And so I went into it from the start with a real desire to approach it with, you know, what's often termed as Ignation Indifference. You know, my phrase, often say, yeah, so yeah, how do we approach this in a totally Todd Hunter (15:10.221) Yeah. Todd Hunter (15:20.694) Yes, unpack that phrase because people might not know what it is. Jeff (15:29.438) open-handed way where we are genuine, you we're trying to enter into a state in which we are genuinely as okay with one outcome or another. And so the, you know, the phrase that I often said to people, people would say, how are you feeling? How are you feeling? And I'd say, I am, I'm engaged in intentional passivity right now. I'm trying to lean into a very sort of passive, open, present state. Todd Hunter (15:51.17) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Todd Hunter (15:57.388) Mm-hmm. Jeff (15:59.198) And of course, you know, as the process goes forward, you begin to imagine the future and begin to imagine different scenarios. And for me, the key was how do I imagine those without getting attached to those imaginations? How do I still approach those in an open-handed kind of way? So it was a real exercise in that. Now, after the election, you know, you would think, well, you're out of that phase of liminality, but actually I just find Todd Hunter (16:06.381) Mm-hmm. Todd Hunter (16:15.671) Yeah. Jeff (16:29.021) in a different season of liminality. And so the election has happened, but as you mentioned, the vote of assent comes up in the next week or two at the College of Bishops. And then after that is consecration as a bishop. then after that, we've got what five or six months where I'm co-adjuder, that Anglican term of where we over... That's right. Yes. Co-agitator, co-adjuder. And so... Todd Hunter (16:29.912) Different sort, yeah. Todd Hunter (16:36.142) Mm-hmm. Todd Hunter (16:43.668) Mm-hmm. Right. Yeah, co-bishop with right to succeed. Yeah. Jeff (16:58.356) So what's interesting is that liminality can actually just show up in different ways. I think it was Ignatius who said that we tend to think of discernment as these distinct kind of bounded situations where fixed seasons in which we're trying to decide something and then once the decision has been made, the discernment process is over. But the reality Ignatius said is that actually we just move from one mode of discernment into another. Todd Hunter (17:03.693) Yeah. Jeff (17:28.319) We move from discerning a particular kind of decision, but once the decision's made, then we have to discern how do we live that out? How do we implement it? And that season brings with it a whole new set of questions and unknowns and perplexities. And so I think... Todd Hunter (17:28.428) Yeah. Todd Hunter (17:41.837) Mm-hmm. Yes. Jeff (17:47.574) I think part of the challenge, and maybe this is true for all of us, and it certainly is for me, is that we have to learn to recognize and be okay with living in a kind of constant state of liminality, where there's a lot more unknowns than we think. At least I have in mind, I'm gonna get to this settled place where we just live in the present and there's not gonna be lots of questions. Todd Hunter (18:09.794) Yeah. Mm-hmm. Jeff (18:17.203) thing is always in the future. There's always unknowns and things, there's a sense of kind of fragility to things. And sometimes it's work, sometimes it's family, sometimes it's health, you know, it's all these things that come our way that we have to learn to live in these open-handed kinds of ways and learn to simply be present to those things with deeper dependence on God and not on certain outcomes happening in a certain kind of way. Todd Hunter (18:20.653) Yeah. Yeah. Todd Hunter (18:27.703) Right. Todd Hunter (18:42.774) Yeah, thank you, that's really helpful. And you know, I love the Ignatian idea of indifference, but I hadn't applied it to liminality, I'm really glad you did. So I wanna circle back there again, because not everybody will be really in tune with Ignatian spirituality. So indifference, as Jeff said, does not mean I don't care. And it doesn't mean God doesn't care, or it doesn't mean I don't have a feeling or a thought about this, it doesn't mean anything like that. For Ignatius, indifference meant something like, the only thing that matters to me is discovering the will of God. Everything else is a matter of indifference. I think that's close to a direct quote, but don't trust me on that. So for Ignatius, it was a way of being like really passionately obedient. It wasn't him saying, I don't care about anything anymore in a sort of cynical way or defeatist or what's the word where you're just sort of checked out. Jeff (19:16.648) Yeah, that's right. That's right, yeah. Todd Hunter (19:37.568) No, was for him. It was a way of being like exquisitely present to his life. Jeff (19:41.781) Yeah, that's right, that's right. No, I think that's a really helpful addition there, because you're right. For Ignatius, it wasn't complacency, and difference is not complacency. It's actually a radical commitment to what does God want here, and that's what I want no matter what, and everything else doesn't matter. Todd Hunter (19:50.06) Yes, right. Yeah, mm-hmm. Yeah, I'm a difference to all else except for discovering what God wants, yeah, yeah. So as you've gone through this, Jeff, what have you noticed have been your temptations? Like I said, I think mine would always be be scratching to the future, know, crawling to the future if I have to, maybe a little bit of impatience, you know, in there somewhere. Jeff (20:00.682) That's right. Yeah, that's right. Jeff (20:21.534) Yeah. Yeah. Todd Hunter (20:22.488) What have you noticed that have been temptations for you as you've had to navigate this liminal space? Jeff (20:28.701) Yeah, I think my temptations are probably similar. And I don't know, maybe that's true for lots of leaders, because you're intrinsically looking to the next thing, you want to get to the next thing. So my temptation is certainly to rush ahead. think for me, it's a in particular, it's a rush. It's a sense of urgency to try to get a comprehensive view on things. So I tend to be an intuitive leader, wanting to see the kind of Todd Hunter (20:40.578) Yeah. Todd Hunter (20:51.426) Mm-hmm. Jeff (20:56.84) connections between things and to see what's bubbling up and to be able to operate out of a kind of instinct or intuition and that comes for me out of having a kind of broad comprehensive sense of things. So it drives my family or friends crazy if they go to a museum with me, if they will let me, rather than going just to the first room that's on your left and walking through, if they'll let me, I will speed walk. Todd Hunter (21:17.454) I know where this is going. Yeah. Jeff (21:26.631) through the entire museum to get a quick overall view and then decide where I want to spend the most time. Because otherwise, if I'm in a room, in the back my mind is, I might be spending time here with some paintings that I kind of like, but I'm missing, you know, German Expressionism or something where I want to spend half the day. And so I feel that way sometimes in, you know, my approach to any number of different situations is how quickly. Todd Hunter (21:26.655) Uh-huh. Yeah. Yeah. Todd Hunter (21:38.51) Right. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Mmm. Jeff (21:54.975) Can I get to a comprehensive view on things? And that's not always the best way to do it. And so what I've been trying to do within C4SO is I'm having conversations with folks and just beginning that process really is to not rush that process, not to try and fit as many conversations into one week as possible, but to simply allow that cumulative process to unfold as I'm present with people and all the amazing things that's happening around the diocese. Todd Hunter (21:58.36) Mm-hmm. Todd Hunter (22:11.224) Yeah. Todd Hunter (22:19.672) Mm-hmm. Todd Hunter (22:24.492) Yeah, let's deepen this a little bit, both personally and sort of corporately and in terms of bridges. Like, what's the problem with rushing? Like, think of that in formational senses and then we'll come back to more corporate leader for the leaders who are listening. And, you know, you and I have both named rushing, but it could be that somebody's clinging to the past or. is sort of paralyzed by anxiety or whatever, but let's just stick to what you and I have confessed. Like in terms of bridges, why is that a problem? Like, why is that something to be attentive to? Why would rushing be a possible problem? Jeff (23:06.814) Yeah, that's a great question. It's been too long since I've read Bridges, so you may have the correct answer where Bridges is concerned on this. I do think, thinking again about liminality, thinking about the work of Victor Turner, talking about these kinds of spaces where in the uncertainty, in the disorientation of those spaces and the desire to move quickly, you end up just reaching too quickly for whatever the next thing is. You miss the creativity. You miss the kinds of things that may bubble up and that that's where God is. That's what God's doing. But we have to have space and time for that to unfold. But that can be a little bit nerve wracking to go at that pace. And it feels safer to grab on to Todd Hunter (23:36.941) Yeah. Todd Hunter (23:54.285) Yeah. Jeff (24:01.787) whatever feels known or, again, it's so often about control. What gives me a sense of control rather than being able to live in a more trusting place and to see what emerges? Todd Hunter (24:08.583) Mm. Yeah. Right. Todd Hunter (24:16.844) Yeah. And and what about with your leadership hat on? Like imagine a rector trying to lead something in his church and it's it's going to have to go through this ending liminal new beginnings phase or somebody who's a leader at work or whatever. Why is being attentive to a leader's own sort of habitual patterns of wanting to sorry, Eric, I want to say that again. proclivity, why is it important for a leader to notice their own proclivity? Because what I'm thinking of is like, okay, I might have a tendency to rush, but I'll just say as a leader of C4SO, I'm surrounded by other really gifted, godly people who might be in 19 different places. And so I feel like for me, part of the reason it's important for a leader to notice themself is that it Jeff (24:54.085) Yeah. Todd Hunter (25:14.442) A, allows them to situate themselves in the place, the position. But B, it reminds them that they're in a community of people that are always going through this too, or sorry, are going through their own internal shakings as well. And so that doesn't mean necessarily that we move at the pace of the slowest person or anything like that. It could mean any number of things. But I just think it's super important to get back to what you said a minute ago, attentive, just noticing. Jeff (25:24.445) Yeah. Jeff (25:31.358) Yeah. Todd Hunter (25:42.927) I like to say reality is our friend. It's when we're detached from reality, whether that's facts or emotions or whatever, that I find leaders get in most trouble. If we can be present to ourselves and present to what everybody else is going through, we can have some hope of getting them through this kind of corporate liminality. Jeff (26:04.072) Yeah, yeah, that's right. Yeah. Well, and I mean, it's interesting as I have been having conversations with folks across C4SO post-election. So even over just the last few weeks and thinking about that attentive, attentiveness to the collective and to the whole and not just to what the leaders is going through. It's interesting. One of the things I've noticed Todd Hunter (26:20.312) Mm-hmm. Todd Hunter (26:24.429) Yeah. Jeff (26:30.937) is in general a lack of anxiety in the people in C4SO I've talked to. It's almost like they have been through their own liminal process. And not that we're completely on the other side of that, but it feels like they've been through a healthy liminal process and have a lack of anxiety about that. And I think that probably speaks to the process that you and the... Todd Hunter (26:40.098) Yeah. Jeff (26:59.366) DOSs and team and staff and key leaders across the board have really approached this process in general, which is to give space, to give time, to give room for people to react, to have very clear processes of communication that keep people updated, that feels like this is a transparent thing happening. yeah, it's really struck me in my conversations with folks thus far that this has felt like a really healthy Todd Hunter (27:21.227) Mm-hmm. Jeff (27:28.743) process. There's no perfect way of doing this and part of it is recognizing everybody approaches change in different ways. But to the degree that we can create space, I think in a diocese or in our churches or with our leadership team or with our festivities or parish councils, remembering and recognizing that you're not going to necessarily be on the same time clock or speed or approach to change as I am. And I need to be able to listen to that and hear that. Todd Hunter (27:30.755) Right. Todd Hunter (27:34.901) Mm-hmm. Todd Hunter (27:51.948) Yeah. Jeff (27:56.86) creates a much healthier process for organizations to come through that successfully. Todd Hunter (28:01.9) Yeah, yeah, thank you, Jeff. All right, so Bridges teaches, you know, we we begin with an ending. We go through a neutral zone and only then do we make a new beginning. And some of Bridges is description about. how you can know you're in a new beginning phase and done with the liminality is that we begin to see some of the goodness of the change. We begin to live into the new reality. We start feeling significant clarity and some acceptance about the new reality. And with that then becomes comes with it a sense of confidence like, I can see this is who I am in this new space. And then with that, some energy to learn and a commitment to the future of the group. So you've said a little bit about this. And thank you for that great compliment of seeing a basic non anxious presence in C4SO. But what glimpses of the new beginning are you beginning to see if any like are are you getting any glimpses? Are you still stuck firmly in the neutral zone? Jeff (28:57.594) Yeah. Yeah, it's certainly coming up in all kinds of ways. I think, you know, if I were to... describe the sense of what I'm hearing from folks as we think about the future. I would describe it as a sense of forward-looking continuity. There's a real sense of gratitude for what's been built. Gratitude for what's been built in Seaforth? Mm-hmm, yeah. I think there's a sense of like, there's something special here. And a real gratitude. Todd Hunter (29:20.952) Hmm. Beautiful, that's really beautiful, Forward looking continuity, that's wonderful, yeah. Jeff (29:37.615) for that, but not in a grasping kind of way, not like we need to hold on to that, but more in the sense of we've got this foundation, ultimately it's a gift of God. It also reflects your leadership over the years and the leadership of really incredible leaders across C4SO. And so we've got this foundation, but there's also more to do. And actually we're just getting started. And so how do we build on this? Todd Hunter (29:40.532) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Todd Hunter (29:50.904) Mm-hmm. Todd Hunter (30:02.328) Yeah. Yes. Jeff (30:07.098) this really healthy foundation to go forward. Todd Hunter (30:09.676) Yeah. Do you find any hopes bubbling up? Do you find any snippets of vision bubbling up? You know, in that sort of Friedman, I mean, sorry, that Bridges term of, you know, beginning to, I think I see, you know, potentialities or. Jeff (30:22.233) Yeah. Jeff (30:28.834) Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's all kinds of things bubbling up. think... Jeff (30:36.699) There's a couple things that come through to me. One is the sense of over the last 10 plus years, however long it's been, God's brought all kinds of growth. And in some ways we've been running the keep up and to bring shape and form into steward that well. At the same time, Todd Hunter (30:55.896) Mm-hmm. Jeff (31:04.546) We don't want to just assume that lasts forever. There's seasons to these kinds of things. And so I'm hearing in part, how do we begin to ask the very thoughtful strategic intentional questions about what does healthy growth look like in a way that's cooperating with what God is doing, but not taking that for granted? How do we begin asking these questions of not just church planters coming our way, but where else should we be church planting and praying for God to bring people? Todd Hunter (31:09.068) Yes. Todd Hunter (31:19.83) Mm-hmm. Todd Hunter (31:24.611) Yeah. Todd Hunter (31:32.044) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Jeff (31:34.63) We want to see more growth in racial and ethnic diversity in our churches and our leaders. And how do we not just pray and aspire to that, but how do we get very intentional and strategic about bringing that more about? How do we get more thoughtful and strategic about raising up new leaders? So I think there's that piece of things. But I think coupled with that and both in what I'm hearing and I think you asked what kind of hopes are bubbling up in me as well as I think about the future. If I think about the vineyard. 25, 30 plus years ago. Or when I hear the stories from you or from others about the Jesus movement. And so many things happened in terms of evangelism and church planting and leaders and people taking risks and doing all kinds of courageous things. And all of that was amazing and incredible. But what it came out of was fundamentally Todd Hunter (32:14.402) Mm-hmm. Jeff (32:39.733) renewal that God was doing. It was this work of the Spirit. And I think as I listen to others and hear what's on their heart and as I think about what I long forgot to do in these next few years, it's on the one hand being very intentional and being thoughtful and strategic, not taking anything for granted, and at the same time saying, how do we create space for the Holy Spirit to do whatever works of renewal He wants to do in us and through us? And it looked one way 25, 30 years ago, looked one way in the vineyard or in the Jesus movement. It may look that way again in the future. It might look completely different. But whatever that looks like, that's really what we want is we want this work of renewal out of which then we're just trying to keep up and we're trying to bring thoughtful structure and channels for what ultimately the Spirit is doing. So I think it's this dual call of thoughtful, strategic, intentional leadership and also Todd Hunter (33:21.975) Yeah. Todd Hunter (33:30.786) Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Jeff (33:39.051) asking God to do new works of renewal in our time that we get to be part of. Todd Hunter (33:43.35) Yeah. Amen. Amen. That's a great thanks for being here, Jeff, and a great segue to how I wanted to end this episode. I ended the first episode with this snippet from John O'Donoghue's poem for a New Beginning. Dwayne read it over us. The last episode is a blessing. And I would like to close this series with this same snippet of poetry from John O'Donoghue. Though your destination is not yet clear, you can trust the promise of this opening. Unfurl yourself into the grace of new beginning. Awaken yourself to adventure. Hold nothing back. Learn to find ease in risk. Soon you will home in a new rhythm. Amen. May it be so. Thank you, Jeff. Jeff (34:48.283) Thank you. So great to be with you.